Re: Troll morals

From: David Cake <davidc_at_cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:40:10 +0800

       Sandy, do you think you can agree with... 1) trolls do not always act through simple self interest BUT
2) trolls do not really understand human concepts of self-sacrifice and pure altruism.

        I am willing to accept that trolls always have a high degree of cynicism and self-interest in their dealings with others, to the degree that the vast majority might be considered sociopathic (some violent, some manipulative) by humans. To us their moral code seems brutal and crude - but not nonexistent.

>So yes, trolls that join XU tend to be milder, more
>humanitarian trolls, who genuinely care for their trollkin.

        Which sounds like a moral sense to me.

> But that
>doesn't mean they don't get real actual benefits for this.

        Sure. But as I pointed out, the same applies to most churches. Your average Archbishop gets quite a few benefits. But merely because you might want to join the church for reasons of self-interest does not preclude joining for moral reasons - and it might well be that without the moral factor, the whole institution might not exist in the first place.

> And XU is definitely NOT liberation theology for trollkin.
>Trollkin within XU are treated better than elsewhere in troll
>society, but they are still exploited, remain slaves, etc.
>

        The XU think the trollkin make good slaves, and useful property, and don't think you should waste them. While the ZZers, who don't care much for anything accept fighting ability (and flavour) generally find trollkin a big waste of time except as lunch. The trollkin that truly learns the XU theology is not liberated, but instead comes to fully realise that if he is going to be a slave, being a valued slave to someone who appreciates that value is the best option. If you're going to be property, it is better to be valuable property. They embrace their slavery, and learn to be good at it.

>>I think that trolls have a definate moral sense - it is just an
>>extremely alien one to ours. Chaos, for example, is immoral to a
>>troll - even if you could escape retribution, becoming chaotic
>would >still be very wrong.
> Actually, as has been pointed out frequently, trolls have a
>pretty lackadaisical attitude towards chaos. The Blue Moon trolls
>and Yolp trolls seem to work pretty well inside the Lunar empire,
>trolls tame and herd chaotic cave trolls, etc.

        Well, the pernicious Lunars are always the exception when it comes to Chaos.
Remember that the Lunar allied trolls (such as Bina Bang) are conducting active missionary work among the non-Lunar trolls in order to soften their attitude to Chaos. In fact, the Lunar trolls acceptance of chaos is about as typical as the Lunar trolls acceptance of the Lunars many Light connections.

        The cave trolls are a different situation - I think trolls tolerate their minor chaos taint, as humans sometimes tolerate Telmori, but consider it a sign of weakness and natural inferiority (so slavery is all they are ever going to get). Even trolls can appreciate that they do not actually worship chaos, and so are more its victims.

>Rather than being
>morally anti-chaos, I believe that trolls simply recognize that
>chaos is dangerous to self and family, and that it should not be
>allowed close at home.

        I think this is probably how most trolls feel about it, but I think the ZZers, and some KLers, will go out of their way to destroy it as a moral duty. Certainly their religious rituals would seem to indicate that fighting chaos is a particular obligation of the cult.

> This is quite different from the human viewpoint, in which
>chaos is seen more the way that the John Birch Society views
>communists.

        I agree that trolls are much less worried about being corrupted by chaos (which should tip you off - if self interest was their sole motivator, they would be just as open to subtle corruption as humans), seeing it as more an external thing that you fight than an infiltrator. I think this shows a firm commitment to opposing it, myself - chaos fighting is so central to ZZ and KL theology that most trolls consider it quite unthinkable, and kill it without a second thought, whereas even the Praxians will ally with it on occasion.

>An troll is perfectly able to love another
>being. This has nothing to do with morality. It's not "moral" to
>love your family and friends (though it is clearly and unnatural
>_not_ to do so -- a human who kills family members is not so much
>regarded as immoral as insane, monstrous, _inhuman_). Morality comes
>in when you're supposed to respect the rights of non-family and
>non-friends.

        Err... perhaps a bit of cultural bias is showing here? There are plenty of moral systems that don't say a whole lot about how you should behave to strangers. Even well known ones like Confucianism are pretty vague on the point, and certainly encourage you to put your family and friends (and authority figures, of course) first every time. I definately feel that trolls have a very alien moral system from our perspective, but a moral system nonetheless. I rather like the idea that the trolls merely believe in a hierarchy of being to an extent that would appall the Confucians or medieval Christians, and figure that anyone who falls below them (which for most uzko is anything that isn't uzko, uzuz, or a powerful spirit of darkness) is to be feared or exploited. Those that fall above them, they fear and revere.

        I also beg to differ on the point that humans who kill family members are regarded as _inhuman_. If you kill your family for no apparent reason then you are regarded as insane, for the act is inexplicable, but if you kill your family members for obvious personal gain, then you are regarded as merely a particularly callous murderer - a monster, but a monster who can be judged morally.

        In Freudian terms, respecting the rights of your family or friends is pretty clearly in the realms of the ego and super-ego anyway.

> Just as with the human cults, the troll cults don't
>propagate their own moral code in any way.

        It is true that most Gloranthan cults do little active missionary work, but I am sure they all propagate their own moral code, even if only to their own worshippers.

>>Even that crazed ZZ Death Lord has a moral sense. Why else would
>he >risk his life frequently in order to vilely murder and mutilate
>what >he morally diapproves of?
> Life is pretty cheap to a ZZer. He doesn't go out and kill
>chaos because he's a courageous defender of society, he kills chaos
>(and other stuff) because he likes to kill, to fight, to exult in
>bloodshed and fiery destruction. He fights chaos for three reasons,
>and three reasons only.
> 1) They're enemies of the clan, so should be killed on sight.

        Which doesn't explain why they seek out chaos particularly, and commemorate victories over it in their religious ceremonies.

> 2) They're tough fighters, so are fun to battle with.

        Rubbish, they are awful to battle with even to a ZZer - besides the danger (all chaos is unpredicatable enough to have an element of real danger, even to a ZZer - you never know when that puny gorp will explode for 6d6 damage), going into battle exposes you to disease (surely the death that disgusts a ZZer the most - they don't even make good zombies afterward), and gains you no decent loot at all, usually.

> 3) Most of them are edible, of course. Yum.

        Again, chaos is usually repulsive. I doubt even trolls can eat gorp or walktapi and enjoy the experience, and the risk of gaining horrible diseases must be far too great. Which doesn't mean that ZZers don't eat chaotics occasionally, but I am sure that there are things they would much rather eat, and that are a lot easier to kill.

> I don't think "morality" enters into it.
>

        Well, I continue to think that they kill Chaos particularly because they think they should, not because they really enjoy it.

>>I think trolls are weird enough already, thanks, without
>postulating >major aberrancies in psychology that we can never
>really hope to >play properly.
> Sez who? I propose that playing a Being of the Id is
>actually simpler than trying to be a person just like us, but from
>another culture.

        I think you sound confused enough on the point in your comments above to demonstrate that it is really difficult to properly conceive a being purely motivated by its primal urges. Even human sociopaths are not creatures of the id.

>>1) do trolls have any altruistic sense at all?
> Yes, but only to people that they know and like. Trolls
>aren't solipsistic -- they have the same emotions as humans, just
>processed differently. A human walking down the street will step
>aside so that another person can have the right of way. A troll will
>only do so if the other person is a respected friend of his, or
>looks tougher than him. Trolls love their children as ferociously as
>any mother bear. Doesn't mean you can rely on them to donate to
>UNICEF.
       I think we suffer from a difference in terminology rather than a real disagreement - I don't think trolls even understand the idea of charity either (they might understand the idea of gifting your underlings to keep them loyal, though). But I think the differences are far more to do with culture than an inate psychological difference, and I certainly think that trolls have big, active, egos. I don't think they would even understand why Freud wanted to separate id, ego and super-ego out that way, though. And many human cultures would agree with them.

> NOTE: I do NOT think that _uzuz_ have any sense of love,
>loyalty, or altruism, though they do rely on such emotions to
>maintain their position.

        I agree that Uzuz are a different case. I am not quite sure if I agree with your interpretation entirely, though - I think even Uzuz might show some loyalty to those few beings they acknowledge as superiours - most of whom are usually considered troll deities. I think there is even a spark of altruism, even if it takes the impending annihilation of the whole universe (like I Fought We Won) to awaken it. Which still makes them stone cold killers as far as the vast majority of the universe is concerned.

        Cheers

                        David



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