Re: trolls and chaos and more

From: Sandy Petersen <sandyp_at_idgecko.idsoftware.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 95 12:26:20 -0500


David Cake
>>I think the ZZers, and some KLers, will go out of their way to
>>destroy it [chaos] as a moral duty.

        ZZ kills chaos because they like to kill, and more often than not they prefer to kill foes, and chaos things pretty much qualify.

        KL kills chaos because their warriors are completely subject to the tribal queens, who wish to preserve their descendants and power as much as possible, so they send the warriors out to kill any chaos that could pose a threat to the tribe. Nearby chaos must be exterminated, because it tends to grow, whereas humans or elves need merely to be cropped back.

>Morality comes in when you're supposed to respect the rights of
>non-family and non-friends.
>>perhaps a bit of cultural bias is showing here? There are plenty
of >>moral systems that don't say a whole lot about how you should
>>behave to strangers

        I don't want to get into a comparative morality bash here, but it's pretty clear that most all organized moral systems _do_ have very specific rules on how you behave to strangers. Yes your family and friends may come first, but Confucianism, Buddhism, the Navajo Way, and Book of the Dead all concur that its worthwhile to be nice to strangers. So give me a damn break.

TROLL CULTURE
I do not believe trolls have a culture in the human sense, other than the most rudimentary. Most of human life is cultural, of course, or at least influenced by culture. Humans universally tend to pair-bond, for instance, and all cultures have some sort of formalization of that status (i.e., marriage), but we certainly have lots of traits and habits that are purely cultural.

        Trolls do not. Their language, for instance, is instinctive. Why do trolls all over Glorantha speak the same mutually intelligible tongue? It's no coincidence. Troll culture is largely instinctive, too. There are little tidbits that are left to local habit, but all troll kingdoms worship Kyger Litor -- an instinct. All troll kingdoms have females in charge -- an instinct. Troll "culture" across the world is much much more unified than any separated human groups could ever hope to be.

WHY ZZ HUNTS CHAOS
>1) They're enemies of the clan, so should be killed on sight.
>>Which doesn't explain why they seek out chaos particularly, and
>>commemorate victories over it in their religious ceremonies.

        Sure it does. Chaos tends to be one of the clan's most dangerous enemies, and certainly it was the worst foe in the Godtime, and hence ZZ's victories over it were the most glorious. In the same ceremonies in which they glorify Thed's dismemberment, they also celebrate the death of High King Elf.

>2) They're tough fighters, so are fun to battle with.
>>Rubbish, they are awful to battle with even to a ZZer

        Pshaw, I say again. Why do teenagers play chicken? Why do jailbirds get ugly prison tattoos? To demonstrate toughness. Just because Chaos is the pits to fight doesn't mean that ZZ won't seek it out, to show how crazy and dangerous they are. The very awfulness of chaos is what makes ZZ seek them out.

>3) Most of them are edible, of course. Yum.
>>Again, chaos is usually repulsive. I doubt even trolls can eat gorp
>>or walktapi and enjoy the experience,

        As is well known, walktapus is considered quite the delicacy, and if you soak gorp in a dilute silution of lye, it becomes quite edible in a day or two (maybe not by human standards). Trolls even enjoy eating undead. The troll HUNGER is something that is quite difficult for humans to properly comprehend.

Simon Hibbs
>Gloranthan trolls are part of the same creation as humans and have
>many mythological connections with them.

        Quite right. Trolls should be repulsively similar to humans, in the same way that people watching monkeys can see horrifying reflections of their own behavior in the little beasts.

>Broo, to take an example from recent discussions, have no
>significant man rune connection, and so cannot be expected to
behave >in a human (or especialy a humane) fashion.

        Yes. Sadly, they'll invariably be _run_ by a human GM or player, so it's hard to do them completely accurately.

>If the troll's fight "in the defence of her clan" is based purely
on >self-interest what is the spark of rightness that stops all troll >neighbors labelling Uz chaotic monsters worthy of immediate
>slaughter?

        Um. Plenty do. Those that don't, refrain because either the trolls have allied to them, provide something they like, or because they're afraid of the trolls (or all three). Note that trolls all over the world live in fringe areas -- barren hill country, tundra, mountains, etc. They aren't down in the fertile valleys with the humans, because they _have_ been driven out. They're up in the hills waiting their chance once more. They've been down here in the valleys before, they remember it, and they'll come back some day. All it takes is for the humans to show weakness. Then the scavenging, pitiless trolls will descend from the hills to pillage as before.

Fantome
>If a troll baby was raised by humans, I think it would learn to
act >as a human of the same culture.

        I think there would always be some differences. The troll baby would never want a nightlight left on, would always tend to eat the furniture, would be MUCH harder to toilet-train, would have worse temper-tantrums. I agree that when adult it would be much more like a human than a "real" troll, but there's more to a troll than nurture.

        Raising a troll in your house is a lot like raising a bobcat. You're never going to feel quite easy about it, no matter how much it likes you when its happy.

Tim Ellis
>I was also wondering what, if any, cetaceans are present in
>Glorantha's waters. They would certainly have plenty of
competition >with blue elves, sea trolls and all those different mer-folk! I >seem to remember something about seal hunschen, though I can't >recall where.

        I think most common types exist, plus some unique Gloranthan ones. Blue elves and sea trolls mostly stick to the shores and kelp forests and such, so probably don't much interact with cetaceans. Mermen are a different story, of course.

        I think there are seal hsunchen in Glorantha, but I doubt there are any dolphin-people -- if there ever were any, they've long since merged with the Ludoch.

        I rather suspect that cetaceans are hunted as prey by the piscoi, and treated as allies/friends/at worst, rivals, by the ludoch and ouori.  


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