Still more trolls....

From: David Cake <davidc_at_cs.uwa.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 18:06:40 +0800

        I ignore the earlier parts of Sandy's message, to spare the list the more adversarial parts of my argument. Sorry all, but this one is long - obviously Peter is correct, I have been struck by the Joerg and Alex curse of interminable argument. Perhaps it is some sort of list spirit of retribution?

>TROLL CULTURE
>I do not believe trolls have a culture in the human sense, other
>than the most rudimentary. Most of human life is cultural, of
>course, or at least influenced by culture. Humans universally tend
>to pair-bond, for instance, and all cultures have some sort of
>formalization of that status (i.e., marriage), but we certainly have
>lots of traits and habits that are purely cultural.

        Here we have our disagreement neatly set out - IMHO trolls have a culture in the humans sense, a fairly sophisticated one, and I think that this is blindingly (or to be more trollish, deafeningly) obvious. How you can have a dozen separate religions, a musical tradition, a language, and a society with a complex social structure (ie there are a great variety of separate social roles within civilised troll society), without a 'culture'? By any reasonable definition of culture that I can think of, it seems that trolls qualify.

        

> Trolls do not. Their language, for instance, is
>instinctive. Why do trolls all over Glorantha speak the same
>mutually intelligible tongue? It's no coincidence. Troll culture is
>largely instinctive, too. There are little tidbits that are left to
>local habit, but all troll kingdoms worship Kyger Litor -- an
>instinct. All troll kingdoms have females in charge -- an instinct.
>Troll "culture" across the world is much much more unified than any
>separated human groups could ever hope to be.
>

        I admit that troll culture is much more homogenous than human. I put this down largely to having the still living ancient uzuz ruling. Around the major centres of troll culture, for example, a prophet who successfully preached against the worship of Kygor Litor would stand a reasonable chance of meeting her personally....

       Whats more, I have great doubts about wether your idea of all the things we normally put down to culture being instinctive is really feasible - - my linguistics knowledge screams out against the idea of trolls being born with an implicit extensive Darktongue vocabulary, for example.

        I am willing to meet you part of the way there, but your position as expressed just doesn't, to my mind, accord with what we know about trolls.

        
        I think that many of the impressions humans have of trolls are
racial characteristics that go beyond culture. Thus far, I agree with you - from a human viewpoint, trolls are obsessed with eating, and this is not just a cultural difference (though their culture does value eating highly) but a difference in the way troll brains work. Its not just that trolls have different cultural values - they can't help but have some different values. So many human perceptions of trolls as a species are not just 'cultural', but a result of fundamental differences. Similarly, the matriarchality of troll society might be something that goes beyond a cultural thing - certainly they are overwhelmingly matriarchal, though it could also be the influence of the Uzuz, or a simple result of the different troll sexual characteristics.

        I think that some of what humans think of as 'Darktongue', and learn as such, is to trolls instinctive. But more expressions of emotions. Consider all the things we say by our facial expressions, and that are generally fairly world wide (the subtleties aren't, but the six or so basic emotions are basically universal). Trolls probably say all this via their voice, and humans think of it as part of darktongue. So I think when a troll says 'hunger! hunger!' she is using her instincts rather than learned language, but I refuse to believe that when she says 'please pass me my nice studded trollkin beating stick, the one in the pelorian style', all that vocabulary is 'instinctive'.

        But I deny that this means trolls have no culture - trolls have music, complex religious beliefs, a complex social structure. They have culture in spades, its just that few humans are in a position to deal with it, being unable to cope with the basics of troll social interaction (and sure, the basics include wanting everyone to be afraid of you, and wanting to eat things to an inhuman degree). Basically, trolls have a culture that as complex and rich as many human cultures - but human society would never have developed it. And troll society would never have developed a human culture either. The basic ground rules are different. Now, unusual humans and trolls can function in the society of the other, if they have experience with it, but they will always find it a little unnatural - much like deaf humans lipreading, its conforming to the dominant culture rather than doing what is natural.

        Here is an analogy, that might help you understand what I think of trolls as being like. There are certaint human congenital conditions (such as praeder-willi syndrome) that, while they include some loss of intelligence, also have other very pronounced changes in behaviour. Preader-willi sufferers, for example, are almost unable to resist available food. Now imagine that trolls have similar innate patterns of different behaviour, but they are supposed to be like that, and they are as smart as you. Furthermore, their whole culture has developed assuming that everyone shares that behaviour.

        
        To sum up - I strongly believe that trolls have a well developed and
complete culture, it is just very different to human. 
        

>WHY ZZ HUNTS CHAOS
>>1) They're enemies of the clan, so should be killed on sight.
>>>Which doesn't explain why they seek out chaos particularly, and
>>>commemorate victories over it in their religious ceremonies.
> Sure it does. Chaos tends to be one of the clan's most
>dangerous enemies, and certainly it was the worst foe in the
>Godtime, and hence ZZ's victories over it were the most glorious. In
>the same ceremonies in which they glorify Thed's dismemberment,
>they also celebrate the death of High King Elf.
>

        You mean, like, oral tradition? Sure - they kill chaos because they want to please ZZ. That is a moral code of a sort, albeit a primitive one. If ZZ put so much effort into killing chaos, we should try to kill it to.

>>2) They're tough fighters, so are fun to battle with.
>>>Rubbish, they are awful to battle with even to a ZZer
> Pshaw, I say again. Why do teenagers play chicken? Why do
>jailbirds get ugly prison tattoos? To demonstrate toughness. Just
>because Chaos is the pits to fight doesn't mean that ZZ won't seek
>it out, to show how crazy and dangerous they are. The very awfulness
>of chaos is what makes ZZ seek them out.

        I didn't mean chaos was tough, I meant it was awful. Like, killing a couple of broos and then getting a vile disease that wastes you to a helpless cripple is not a good way to impress people.

>Simon Hibbs
>>Gloranthan trolls are part of the same creation as humans and have
>>many mythological connections with them.
> Quite right. Trolls should be repulsively similar to
>humans, in the same way that people watching monkeys can see
>horrifying reflections of their own behavior in the little beasts.
>

        I kind of agree. Trolls are gluttonous, vicious, bullies, who generally behave like human sociopaths, and they like to wallow in damp and filth (by human standards). To trolls, this is all natural and even admirable.

        And the trolls feel much the same about human culture, I am sure. Much as humans find trolls dangerous for killing people whenever it seems like a senseible idea, I am sure trolls view humans who attack them without a good reason (ie to satisfy inexplicable Humakti honour) just as weird.

>>If a troll baby was raised by humans, I think it would learn to
>act >as a human of the same culture.
> I think there would always be some differences. The troll
>baby would never want a nightlight left on, would always tend to eat
>the furniture, would be MUCH harder to toilet-train, would have
>worse temper-tantrums. I agree that when adult it would be much more
>like a human than a "real" troll, but there's more to a troll than
>nurture.

        Agreed. Raising a creature of another species is always going to be a big trial.

        On the broo front - I rather like several suggestions. Satyrs and fauns being the original non-chaotic broo is a reasonable theory, at least they are probably related. Note that I used the term 'mistress race' only by analogy with trolls - I didn't mean to imply that there was necessarily anything particularly feminine about the pre-chaos broo. I suspect, though, that they where either many more females, or all males.

        Cheers

                David
Computing Officer         |
Arts Faculty              |

Uni. of Western Australia |

End of Glorantha Digest V2 #89


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