Trolls, Hsunchen & Death

From: yfcw29_at_castle.ed.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 95 12:01:46 BST


Andrew Joelson :

> Sandy's view on trollish culture being instinct-based doesn't jibe
>with KL 'mating with the man-rune'. The trolls should be closer to humans
>than elves or mostali.

Why?
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Graeme :

>This seems an appropriate time to refloat my theory that non-chaotic
>broo are satyrs. ....(last time I posted this I got no (0) responses !)

Consider this a positive response. Satyrs incoming to my campaign in the near future.
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Daniel McCluskey :

>>WHY SANDY THINKS TROLL CULTURE IS INSTINCTIVE
>> 1) All dark trolls and all snow trolls speak Darktongue,

> I think that the consistancy of language is due much more to the
>"inhumanly" close ties Trolls keep with their ancestors, and with the
>extreme lifespan of the Uz Matriarchy, than any instinctive capability for a
>particular language.
>
>A troll who cannot speak darktongue correctly looses access to many
>Thousands of Generations of acumulated knowledge and Magic.

Two problems with this.

One : This would also apply to human Daka Fal ancestor worship, in which at least the shamans would need to speak the language of the ancestors.

Two : Spirits don't necesserily speak mundane tongues. For a start, they can't make any sounds, but have to rely on mental communication such as mindspeech. There used to be a specific spirit speech, which was a battle magic (spirit magic) spell in RQ2. Does this still exist?

I'm afraid the rest of your arguments are less than compelling. You argue that Trolls the world over have the same religious and cultural practices, because they are all brought up the same way. Well of course they are, they share a common culture.

>> 3) Trolls live in vastly different situations worldwide.
>
>This I would also dissagree with. Trolls live in vastly different PLACES,
>yes, but they all have communication with the same ancestors.

Again, this should also be true of human ancestor worshiping cultures.

>They all have similar upbringings.

Of course they have similar upbringings - they share the same cululture - but WHY.

>Every Troll in Glorantha can trace
>their heritage back to KL Herself,

Now that, I doubt.

>Which brings up another interesting point... How well do the Uz understand
>Time?. ...

>Some of their apparently instinctive behaviors might be due to an incomplete
>comprension of Time and Order. ie the order of events is not nearly so
>important to trolls as the events themselves.

Now that I can agree with completely.

>I don't really think of themselves as connected to time in the same way
>Humans do. This would go a long way towards explaining Zorak Zoran worship
>(the Deeds are important - not the length of your life), and Uz conservatism
>(Troll in Pavis in 1625==Troll in Guhan in 0025)

I don't see any particular difference in character between worship of ZZ and, say, worship of Storm Bull. Certainly not any differences that require such an explanation.

Ok, I accept that troll interaction with their ancestors would be a powerfull force for consistency in troll culture, but I fail to see why this should apply to trolls any more than to human ancestor worshipers, unless there were other forces in play. That additional force is troll instinctiveness.

>How many Death Lords do you see lining up to Arm Wrestle Miss Cragspider?

If Gore or Gash were to make the challenge, I know who I would bet on, unfortunately they aren't around anymore. The fact that the premiere troll heroquestor at the moment happens to be female proves nothing. Anyway, it's not as though who would come out tops in a fight is relevant, It's who wields the greatest influence. The females are highly respected and revered, but the powerfull ones are also hardly ever seen, even by the vast majority of uz. The males wield most immediate social power.

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David Dunham :

>> I realy like Hsunchen, you
>>can learn a lot about Glorantha from them, they're like a living
>>cultural fossil from waaaaaaaay back.
>
>True, but only to a point. Frex, I believe the East Ralian hsunchen didn't
>know spirit magic until they were contacted by the Theyalan missionaries
>(they dealt with totem spirits and spirit friends;

This actualy supports my possition. The currently accepted three forms of magic (Spirit/Divine/Sorcery) are artificial God Learner constructs. Before their mythological re-engineering and classification programmes things were much more open ended. I very much doubt the East Ralian hsunchen ever had any contact with the GLs and so would have had a primeval magical tradition. One which has been supplanted by the more efficient GL influenced Theyalan system.

> .........................see the Pendragon
>supplement Beyond the Wall for one way this could work).

I fully intend to, thanks for the tip.

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Mark Mohrfield :

>The mostali are related to the man-rune? But in ESoG it says that dwarfs are
>not descended from Grandfather Mortal.

Mostal used the man rune to fashion the dwarfs, definitely. I wish I had my references her to look it up.

>But in ESoG it says that dwarfs are
>not descended from Grandfather Mortal.

I think mostal used the man rune as a mould to form the first dwarfs from.

>If they are related to it,
>then how come they don't age? Then again now that I think about it, the
>Brithini must be related to the man rune and they don't age. Perhaps
>death by age is a result of a relationship to the beast (or in the case of
>elves, the plant) rune. But then what about that story about all mortals
>having to die because Grandfather Mortal died?

This is a tricky one. Once death had been discovered, Eurmal stole it and passed it around so everyone could have a go. Thus death spread around the world. However, not everyone was exposed to it before the Great Compromise.

Sandy - You know all about this stuff, don't you?

Simon Hibbs
yfcw29_at_castle.ed.ac.uk


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