>You also write that "we know" that Humakt was a cult created by Arkat,
>which was originally Humath of Ralios. Um, I didn't know that. Is
>this really confirmed, or one of the perfidious net-theories that
>sometimes seem to spring up?
The Story was 'When Arkat was a Duck' and it was printed here in volume 1, No. 88. According to the Broken Council Guidebook (ask Eric for details on how to get it), Humath was a god worshipped in Ralios during the first age. The Book has been endorsed by Greg.
>You aren't getting me, are you? THIS IS NOT EARTH! Why are you
>assuming that mythological progression in Glorantha is anything like
>what happens here? I mean, this place is a lozenge enclosed by a
>solid heavenly dome, Eric! It isn't like here.
I have seen the light. Let us rid Glorantha of of all Earthlike phenomena! Kill all the humans for a start...
Jose Ramos:
> I suppose that you remember all those apocaliptic profecies that a
>horrible mythical event is bound to repeat itself each 500 some years. All
>my reference material is in Spain, but I recall KoS and G:CotHW.
> Most people consider it the work of Chaos to destroy the world. But
>the second time the menace was the GL and the EWF. If you put them in the
>same league as Gbaji/Arkat and the Red Moon, what do you have? (Besides
>orlanthi propaganda, that is).
> To answer myself, chaos.
An interesting point. The second reappearance of the Devil may have been in Slontos. That land got warped by Chaos before it sank in 1050 ST. Given that it was controlled by God Learners makes your thesis plausible.
Erik Sieurin:
Somebody wrote:
>> Sounds a good deal like the Metamorphosis rules in CotA, except of course
>> these changes aren't permanent
>The Metamophosis rules in WHAT?
Chronicles of the Awakenings. It's a Nephilim sourcebook. Clearly the Templars are planning to subvert this group...
>Now, I certainly agree that Glorantha aint Earth, but using Earthly
>analogies can be amusing. And on earth, various ecological types
>(coniferous forests, deciderous forests, etc) seems to be "fighting"
>each other.
This happens in Glorantha. Aldrya's Woe of Pamaltela. The Green Elves ruled over much of the forests of Pamaltela. Howevr the Yellow and Brown Elves became more numerous after the sun had risen and cast down the rule of the Green Elves. Also note that the Yellow Elves of Fethlon fight amongst themselves for unknown reasons, the Posionthorn Elves war with the Hellwood Elves. BTW I loved the Scandinavian parallel.
Adrian White:
>Peter M.
>> stuff about car engines I won't repeat
>But, gosh, next you'll be saying that the Gloranthan sun is a super hot ball of
>hydrogen hanging in vaccum and the only reason it gets dark is due to rotation
>of the world. On top of that Eric Rowe cites death as coming from cellular
>aging! I mean whats an honest theist to believe these days!
It was only meant to be an analogy. Only the dwarves would suggest anything like the Gloranthan Sun is a superhot ball of hydrogen. And even then they are partly right.
>For a final mention of the God Learners, I ain't got many references to hand
>here in Norge so could someone remind me how long their "evil and manipulative
>empire" lasted.
The God Learner Empire had been form around 750 ST although they were prominent for several decades prior to that. Their Empire started falling apart before the Closing. Loskalm revolted in the ninth century, Umathela was crushed in 1020 ST by an elvish army. Seshnela was sunk by the Luatha in 1049 ST and Slontos and Jrustela followed the sinking feeling in the next year. The last mention of the God Learners is a God Learner Fleet that was crushed by the Invisible Fleet of the Marintho Sea (Yes, the Ghost Fleet of Argrath's Saga) in 1073 ST.
The God Learner influenced civilizations lasted longer. The New Dragons Ring were killed in 1120 ST. Kalabar was sacked by the Fonritans in the same century.
Jonas Pope:
I had written:
>>"The False Gods and the Pagan Gods are two separate categories. The
>>Western Soldier's World View in the Player's Book of G:CotHW makes this
>>clear."
Jonas cultivates the excellent habit of reading up the original material and not merely taking my word for it...
>Probably I'm missing something obvious, but this is not clear to me.
Whoops. [Sounds of Extreme backpedaling]. I should have said 'makes this distinction'.
>The
>Western Soldier says: "The False Gods are ever ready to lead us down the
>path to perdition. The Invisible God has shown us the way to immortality
>and happiness, and his word is to be followed in every way. The pagan gods
>and their stultifying magic must be shunned." (G&, p.21) Is the speaker
>here really drawing a distinction between false gods and pagan ones? Or is
>this just a case of what writing teachers used to call elegant variation--
>using different terms for the same thing to enliven a text?
I would say he was (unconciously) making a distinction. A large number of the Malkioni would say he was making use of an elegant variation. As a RW example, most Christians would not call Pagans Devil Worshippers (although some do).
>A statement on
>the previous page seems to equate the False Gods with those that the pagans
>worship: "Any other attempt to work magic results in damage to the user and
>leads to imprisonment within the material plane--look at the hordes of
>pagans trapped in the worship of their False Gods for proof." (G&, p.20)
I should have added that in some cases of pagan gods, the Malkioni would assume that the Pagan Gods are merely Masks of the False Gods. Like for the Henothiest Solar Worshippers in Lowland Ralios, he knows they actually worship Ehilm who was expelled from Brithos by Malkion. But in Dragon Pass, you've got Elmal and Yelmalio who are not related to Ehilm at all. Ergo they must be anthromorphications of the Sun God in Malkioni eyes. If you can't beat them, Patronize them...
>Furthermore, GoG appears to support the idea that the False Gods are the
>mental construct that Westerners use to categorize/explain the pagan gods
>of their neighbors. "False Gods--According to ancient Malkioni history,
>wicked sorcerors learned to control great natural powers and intertwined
>their souls with Nature's forces to become creatures now worshipped by lesser
>beings." (Prosopaedia, p. 6). The 3 examples given, Ehilm, Humct, and
>Worlath, clearly are related to important pagan gods. Nor does it seem to
>me that these are more than examples--one wouldn't expect the authors to
>clog the Prosopaedia with a Malkioni False God for every pagan god.
But note that in 'what the Wizard says', when the Wizard talks about the other gods he refers to them by their real name and not the name of the False God. For Yelm, he merely says it is an anthromorphication of the Sun and speaks nary a word about the Evil Ehilm. The similarities between the False Gods and the Important Pagan Gods are clear but that does not mean they are the same. For instance, I believe Ehilm to have been the Governer of the Kingdom of Logic (ancient Brithos) for Yelm upon the Spike. To later Malkioni eyes, he then appears to be the Sun God even though he was not THE Sun God.
As for Worlath and Humct, I know too little to say why they are similar to Orlanth and Humakt. Note that Humct the Vivisectionist is quite different from Humakt the First Sword.
Andrew Joelson:
>At the very least, this idea collides with
>the Fronelan 'False Gods' Humct (sp?) and Worlanth; is Arkat supposed to
>have carried Humath back to Fronela from Ralios? he was pretty busy going
>the other direction...
Humct is in Fronela? have you got any details?
> BTW, somebody said recently that Yelm only came into being as
>a composite of older myths around 100ST. I haven't heard this before
>either, though I'm willing to listen to a logical argument on the matter.
Eric is merely referring to Avivath's mission who founded the modern cult of Antirius and Yelm around 100 ST. A Cult of Yelm existed before this but we cannot say that Avivath resurrected the old cult (chiefly because Yelm has become illuminated and no longer cares about the exact details IMHO).
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #106
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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