Peter writes in response to Nils:
>>The Malkioni State of Grace is Solace not bloody Nirvana! So what if the
>>Souls of the Malkioni are for the most part undetectable by magic after
>>death? Do you imagine a spell of a puny mortal is able to overcome the
>>Invisible God?
Justin writes:
>Just what is the Malkioni state of grace? Is it well defined like that of
>Nirvana or is it hazily defined like the Christian Heaven? Is Solace
>different for the different sects of Malkionism?
>If so what are the differences?
The State of Grace is where the Pious Malkioni go when they die. I refuse to define it objectively any more than that. Most Malkioni say they live Perfect Immortal Lives there. No, I don't think each sect has its own version of Solace although what each sect may say Solace is like undoubtedly differs.
>Depending on the definition of Solace I would think that souls either could
>effect the mundane world and hence could be detected (if only by their
>effects) or the could not effect the world and are undetectable by any
>means. The IG does not come across as one who "plays with dice". There is no
>"for the most part".
You are using to define the Invisible God? I am reminded of St Thomas Aquinas saying that there are three things cannot do and one was to construct a triangle with an internal angle sum of less than or greater than 180 degrees: which is quite easily done using non-Euclidean Geometry. IMHO, this achieves nothing. Who says there is no 'for the most part'.
>Malkion and IG don't interact with the world. The wizards of the church use
>sorcery. From my understanding sorcery is the manipulation of the natural
>laws of the world as they were when the IG created the whole thing.
I disagree. This is the Brithini view of magic promoted by the Archsorcerer Zzabur. All Pious Malkioni, IMO, know that their magic is but mere prayers to the Invisible God who responds to their request. And furthermore Sandy's own Sorcery Rules allow Malkion to be invoked as a Patron Saint.
>This
>kind of magic requires no input from the god other than the original
>creation. When the sorcery "Worship the Invisible God" is cast and
>worshippers do their thing they do not get the feeling of communion with
>their god as their Theyalan cousins do. The simply know that their magic
>points were accepted by the IG. (That is one cold god)
More Brithini propoganda! The Invisible God interacts through the world constantly by the Acts of the Saints and the prayers of the Devout. He is viewed as Aloof because He is Perfect. If the Faithful try and imagine what the Invisible God is like, then they will introduce Error into their Image of Him and accordingly draw upon the Devil for their magic.
>I think Sandy recently compared Theyalan views of the afterlife with those
>of Malkioni. From what he said the Malkioni State of grace IS like Nirvana
>from the point of view of the mundane world.
>_Once_you_go_you_don't_come_back_. This is significant in that it has
>religious/magical ramifications: The only way you get to influence the world
>after dying/apotheosising is by not going all the way to Solace.
Does not follow, say I. Sandy was contrasting Solace _against_ Theyalan beliefs in reincarnation. Dayzatar Priests Do Not Come Back after Death. Kralori Emperors Pass On. Yet both can be interacted with after Death (cf Buserian, Priest God of Dara Happa and the Kralori Emperor Cults). You are reading _way_too_much_ into the Malkioni belief that they don't come back.
>Because if
>you go all the way you wont be able to grant powers for patronage like the
>saints do. Therefore the Bohdisattva comparison is a valid one in that once
>Nirvana/Solace is attained you leave the picture. If you want to have a
>finger in the pie of the world you have to stick around.
So? A Christian goes to Heaven and never comes back according to mainstream theology. Yet Christain Saints can interact with the mortal world and do, according to mainstream theology.
>I do have a rudimentary understanding of what happens to Buddhist
>Saints(Bohdisattvas).
>I do not have an understanding of Christian Saints
>other than what I was told as a child (you can't become one. you are born a
>saint.)
This is sheer nonsense!
>and the fact that it takes the Vatican a while to do the paperwork.
Orthodox, Anglicans and other High Faiths do (I think) also have Saints. I hardly think they defer to the Papal See on such matters considering the length of time it took for them to accept a calender reform promolgulated by Pope Gregory.
>Are there any knowledgeable people who are Orthodox Christians or Catholics
>who can tell us what the progress and eventual status of Christian saints
>are? Perhaps yourself Peter? If anyone does have an answer perhaps we can
>use the Christian model if it is better suited to Malkioni.
I do not really care what Solace is like. It matters little whether Solace is like the Jehovah Witnesses version of Paradise or the Seventh Heaven of Islam or whatever. I only mentioned Christian Saints as an example to confute the general notion that not returning from Solace means that Solace=Nirvana. Ergo Sainthood equals Boddhisvattas and not Arhats. I have pointed out that Malkion and Hrestol _are_in_Solace_. They have come back. Buddhism is not the only parallel.
The thing that I am trying to get across is that making distinctions between who is and who is not in Solace is that it is meaningless to the Malkioni upon Glorantha IMO. They have far more important things to yell at each other about. Solace exists! It is worth striving for! How to get there is the Tricky Part...
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