My American Bro' defends his thesis of Kazkurtum:
>I base my belief of him [Kazkurtum] as a Trickster on a couple of things.
>First, in the Fright aspect section of the Trickster writeup, an incarnation
>is mentioned who begins a reign of terror in Peloria. He is credited with
>being so scary he "frighten(s) off even trolls for a while, then succumb(s)
>to his own fears." The only Emperor which seems to fit the bill for me is
>Kazkurtum.
Egads, I am Gregged! Oh sweet angels, I am mortally wounded...I die... <gasp>...mother...<choke>...<splutter>.....
>Next, look at what Kaz does (according to The Fortunate Succession). He
>makes the Dara Happan people do "unnatural things," such as eat mushrooms,
>have pleasurable sex, enjoy being artistic, scorn leaders, and shamelessly
>run around naked. Harldy "worldly riches" sort of stuff, or even "evil"
>except to uptight anal-retentive sexually repressed patriarchial extremists.
I think that this stuff is projected onto Kazkurtum rather than Kazkurtum being the Cause, ie "People are enjoying Sexual Intercourse! Eurgghh!!! It's all Kazkurtum's fault!". People were doing this stuff long before Kazkurtum was Emperor IMHO. However the Fortunate Succession was written at the founding of the Lunar Empire after the shackles of Carmanian Rule had been cast off. Some of these practices may be vile customs of the Carmanians. A good RW parallel is a polemic in the Book of Maccabees (Jewish Rebels against the Hellenisation of the Selucids) against the vile practices of the gymnasium.
The end effect of this still makes Kazkurtum into a Trickster figure with the added bonus that he acquires the usual perverse sex appeal ie Seducer Aspect.
>(OK, sure, some of the stuff he did was more harmful, like making some people
>hate children, seek cruelty, kill relatives, and reject the gods. But
>still... it all sounds more Trickster in his Destroyer/Murderer role than
>Wakboth or Ragnaglar.)
I must admit having had extreme difficulty in deciding whether Ol' Kaz is chaotic or not. Although his reign is at the right time, Dara Happa shows little or no appreciation of the horrors of Chaos. I thought he could have been a troll, but his trademarked picture (two big horns) is not trollish and the Book of Uz would have had some mention of him. The Fright/Destroyer/Murderer (Trickster) makes more sense to me than either of the other two.
>IMO there are three culturally important incarnations of Trickster in Dara
>Happa. Kaz embodies the Fright, Dismembered, and Destroyer aspects.
>Umatum is the Murderer.
I would have thought his fertile powers would be much stronger. It really depends on what particular time period you are talking about. As of 1621, yes, the Lunars do see Umatum, known to the Barbarians as Orlanth, as the Evil Murderer of Our Beloved Murharzarm. Prior to this (and we are talking thousands of years) I do not think Umatum was seen as a murderer or even a destroyer.
>Rankenveg is the Seducer and Sexual Insatiate.
It seems to me that Kenstrata or Ulkamoon (or even Umatum) being better sorted to that sort of thing. Rakenveg is depicted as a carrot god and the only trick he said to have played is to burn down the city of Hamados after Ovosto died. I would be tempted to place the Firebringer aspect upon him but he is too obscure for me to pin him down..
>Now, some of you may ask, "What about Rebellus Terminus?"
>He is a Lunar deity, who (IMO) represents the Murderer and Destroyer.
>The Dara Happan gods Umatum and Kazkurtum are probably both seen as
>incarnations of him by the Lunars.
Rebellus Terminus is Lunar? He was the Actual Murderer of Murharzarm. I'd say he was the original Murderer figure in Dara Happa and his aspect later became grafted on a storm god to filfull Dara Happan myth.
Pam Carlson:
>I'd always considered the phrase "Empty Emperor" to mean a shamanistic
>(Jenarong) one - one who lacked the Anitrius/deist portion.
But only one or two of the Jenarong Emperors were called Empty Emperors. Thus IMO the phrase refers to something else. The Power of the Centre is that of Stability and Social Order. When the Fortunate Succession says that 'The power of the Empty Emperor is that there is No Center', it is referring not to any magical worship of Kazkurtum but in that an Emperor can become strong through the use of lawless despotism (ie like Kazkurtum and the Carmanians ruled). This while a successful policy abjures everything a Dara Happan Emperor (thus 'Empty Emperor') should stand for and so should be shunned. The fact that lawless anarchy is also the element of the trickster was the point my american brother was trying to make IMO. The Dara Happans have merely dressed this point up to attach it to their world view.
>But I have been confused about how Yelm could have a Kazkurtum part.
The myth of the distintegration of Yelm says that one part of it was shadow. This I think refers to Basko who is in Troll Gods is stated as the Spiritual Shadow of Yelm. It then goes onto state that Kazkurtum who was nothing before then worshipped it and became strong. However Kazkurtum becomes prominent 10,000 years _after_ Yelm is killed. So it appears to me that this is backward compression of the events in question.
>Has anyone noticed the Lokarnos tale in the new GRoY? L is crushed by a
>wagon full of gold and crippled.
>Lokarnos - god of wheeled vehicles, crippled.
>Mastakos - god of wheeled vehicles, crippled.
>I don't remember - are they the same planet/star?
No they're not. Lokarnos is the Wagon Planet which takes 98 days to cross the sky. Mastakos is known to the Dara Happans as Uleria and takes only 1/3 of a day to cross the sky. This doesn't prevent the two cults from sharing similar myths as undoubtedly happened during the Bright Empire.
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