Sandy Petersen
>>> [Rokari] are the heart and soul of the Rokari sect of Malkionism, >>>which is to Malkionism as Roman Catholicism is to Christianity. >>>I.e., the most numerous and perhaps the oldest sect.
Almost full agreement from my side, at least through the eyes of a 3rd Age Malkioni. Not the oldest, but certainly the most old-fashioned sect, and the most numerous because it had semi-Malkioni and other Malkioni to expand into in large quantities: Ralios, and most of Seshnela.
Of course we know that of the existing sects, the Rokari are one of the youngest, originating sometime around 1350 so that Bailifes could look back on a short but intense tradition of martyr "Saints" when he used Mardron and his fanatical following to establish himself as the new King of Seshnela around 1412.
Ok, the Loskalmi brand of Hrestolism is younger, but only by about 80 years, and who knows when Gaiseron started testing his theories...
This makes them even younger than the Fonritian heresy or the Heortland Aeolians (who eveloped from a subcult of Orlanth into a "Malkioni sect" around 1320, in my current view of events, in a very similar situation of a power group seeking a religous cause to aid their expansion - this is when they conquered Refuge, too, and built the citadel there, if any of you use the Thieves World pack or the French adaption of it as well).
Very similar to Christian doctrine, the messages of free will and freedom of choice voiced both by Malkion (leading to his expulsion from Brithos) and Hrestol (another exile...) were turned into solidified dogma in the greatest sect...
Nick Brooke
>>Hmm... There are also comparisons with Lutheran Protestants, in >>that the Rokari Church was born out of a Reformation of the >>corrupted post-God Learner church of Seshnela, as a deliberate >>"Back to Basics" movement.
Hmm. Nick, are you familiar with Lutherans? I am one of them, and since this chapter was vital to German and religious history, quite well-informed on the topic. The Lutherans were quite liberal, even though they behaved more pious than the papist church until the counter-reformation set off. I'm less familiar with the Calvinists (although a descendant of the hugenots), but _they_ seem to have been the more codified, stuck-up people, with strict clothing taboos etc.
I prefer to view the Rokari as a counter-reformation movement, although their iconoclasm does coincide with the reformation side. But then the Rokari had to deal with hardly concealed pagan (henotheist) symbols rather than canonized saints on their Ralian border.
Sandy again
> Yes, but there is no real trace of the pure original church
> left, at least not as a major force.
Around 1410, the Tanier Valley church situation must have been interesting: after the God Learners had been destroyed, the Malkionism influenced by them was still strong in what remained of Seshnela, stronger than in Ralios (where the Arkat-derived Henotheists had reformed after the Seshnegi Empire sank in 1049) or in Akem (where somewhat more traditionalist churchmen had taken part in ousting the God Learners, although the most true Talori had left with Syranthir and the rest succumbed to GL doctrine).
Tanisor and the neighboring duchies must have had a political situation quite similar to modern (1620s) Ralios, with lots of fiercely independent city-states or at least minor counties and duchies as remnants of a once greater, united empire. I suppose that most of the lords of these states acted as heads of their respective churches, similar to the Dark Age Christian churches of the late Migration Germanic nations in the ruins of the Roman Empire - a tradition surviving in several Ralian countries, and heavily disputed even in the Tanisoran Kingdom of "Seshnela". I don't think there was one central religious authority like the papacy of the High Middle Ages - some bishoprics may have been more respected than others, but none had even a near claim to infallibility (vs its peers, not vs the populace).
I think that St. Rokar was something of a raving monk demanding some penitance, who found some adherents. A bit like Franciscus, a bit like his more military contemporaries forcing poverty upon the fattened clergy of Italy in that time, although poverty of the Malkioni Church never was an issue (unless it happened). Rokar may have preached against the "unnatural" order left behind by the Rightness Crusaders, and the uneffective power of the knights and soldiers of his time to counter the pagan influences which had been tolerated by the God Learners (for experimentation and studies) and thereafter by the state churches (by default). He might have been a witch-burner...
> Perhaps a happier analogy
> might be the Orthodox church, with its periodic iconoclastic riots.
Or the muslim prohibition to depict actual parts of the creation, and the somewhat laxer execution of this in medieval Persia (how about Moorish Spain?), to use another monotheist religion for comparison.
> If we look at the Rokari Reformation as a sort of purging effort
> that took root and displaced the original church, my point of view
> may be clearer. What I'm trying to say here is that the Rokari sect
> is in the Catholic faith's position prestige-wise. It is derived
> from the olden ways,
Hmm. The Rokari copy the ur-Malkioni of Akem or Seshnela before the Dawn (which held on to Brithini caste restrictions by tradition, without gaining the benefit of immortality). They had been proven wron by Hrestol in 1 S.T., so they don't relate to the first active Malkioni church anybody can remember (well, study from the sources) which knew upward caste mobility. (In HtWW1, there was known downward caste mobility in several Rokari families, leading to former Lord caste branches of the noble families reduced to mere Wizard caste families, although still regarded as relatives by the Lord caste branch. This way there could be families occupying both Lord and Wizard functions - like the de Loimbards of Estau, the du Tumerines of Nolos or the Capratis of Pasos. BTW: is Trading (Garzeen-style) considered a lordly or wizardly pasttime?)
> and that it is the sect to which all other
> Malkioni sects must, ultimately, deal with.
Not the Fronelans - by the time they have enough rest to consider religious niceties towards the non-Fronelan sects, Seshnela will be a smoking heap of ruins after Wolf Pirates, Luatha, Brithini from Arolanit, Agimori from Afadjann and Pithdaros (in Nolos), and Waertagi and their immortal allies (Brithini or Vadeli?) will have swept the land. I doubt the Rokari will have a centre of power after all this, or a strong Ecclesiarch. Likewise one or more of the five Ralian Arkats might face and possibly even reform the Rokari both in Safelster and the Lower Tanier valley.
> Some may respect the
> Rokari, some may hold them in contempt, or defer to them, or openly
> hate them, but a number of other Malkioni sects define themselves
> largely by how they differ from the Rokari. Of course, they wouldn't
> see it this way.
True. The various henotheist sects of Ralios and Maniria have enough trouble justifying their separate existances on other reasons than being a state church of a tiny city-state. This is what makes Surantyr so dangerous in Ralios - he has overcome the strict separation of the state-churches somewhat and can draw power from followers in other city-states, a feat no other Ralian church has mastered so far (although the Old Arkat Kult Alliance might step forward as a counter-organisation).
> While the Hrestoli may claim to be as old as the Rokari,
> their own recent revolution in religion was, by their beliefs,
> larger and purer than the Rokari.
You mean Loskalmi New Idealist Hrestoli? Then say so, please, because there are still "Hrestoli" remnants of the Middle Sea Empire church in numerous pockets, not just the Castle Coast (they are the worst, though - I know from personal experience in HtWW1).
> I picture the Rokari as believing
> they purified their old ways,
Definitely. The Rokari _know_ they are right. Most of all the Inquisition.
> while I see the Hrestoli as believing
> that they turned _from_ the old ways to the new.
Hmm (again). Gaiseron believes that he, as every Loskalmi, was born a farmer (quoting David Gadbois from the Leicester HtWW1 run, and while most likely not actual history, true to him - I think Nick agreed upon this later that evening).
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #218
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