>Whew! Peter Metcalfe wins my Special Pleading award for his argument
>that, for True Mostali, caste only biases perception, and doesn't
>determine proper behavior. It's inventive, you have to give him that.
>However, the dwarf caste system is modeled on the ancient system of
>the TM's (ES, ERB p. 9).
True. However I believe that the Clay Dwarves are so intent trying to model themselves on their Metal Archetype that they are busy repressing any thoughts that are not part of their chosen caste. If they do not do so, then their chances of attaining Diamondwarf Status is reduced. The True Mostali has no such qualms about unmetallic behaviour because he already _is_ what the Clay Dwarf desires to become.
As an example: A Mostali makes an object than crosses several Caste demarcation Guidelines. Perhaps he is a Gold making a Jeweled War Helmet that bedazzles the Enemy on the field. Now although Jewelery clearly comes within his domain, making armour is an Iron's job and the enchantment is a Silver's duty. Thus a Clay Dwarf in the Gold caste would waste time getting other dwarves to help him, filling out permits to show that he is being a Proper Dwarf and so forth all to ensure that he does not harm his duty for the Machine. A Gold Mostali would just make the damn thing without any thought for the consequences of violating Caste responsibility. A gold diamondwarf wouldn't even think of making such a thing by himself but I suppose a few could have learnt how to relax (Perhaps they're Illuminated?).
>The Mostali fighters before the invention of Iron were clearly (i.e., I
>guess) the Copper Dwarfs, who make some weapons (and, for what it's worth,
>get percentiles in 1H Hammer Attack, tho' no parry skill). For the most
>part, pre-Iron armies of Dwarfs used Jolanti, earth elementals, other
>constructs, alchemy, and magic. IMHO.
An excellent point. However I don't think that the True Mostali (whatever the metal) acted like Brithini Talar (ie no weapons) when they took to the battlefield. That is why I objected to Joerg's insinuation that Marteler committed Caste Crime when he faced the Only Old One in battle.
Joerg Baumgartner:
[Atomism]
>> The early second age Seshnegi Philosophy was Atomism. I think
>> these dudes were so materialistic that they actually thought
>> Solace was a physical place on Earth and expended their energies
>> in trying to find it (ie Teleportation, Outer Atomist explorers
>> etc).
>That's the Colonials who had remained untouched by the Gbaji wars
>(except perhaps for some volunteers). What you say may be true for
>the Jrusteli, I think, but not necessarily in the homeland.
huh? Troll Gods says that the Arkati fought against the Outer Atomic Explorers who were then followed by the God Learners. Considering the Arkati were in Ralios and the Jrustela was the homeland of the God Learners, I think it follows that the Atomists were likely to be the Ruling Faith in Seshnela when they were continually fighting against the Arkati before the Return to Rightness Crusade.
>According to the USCCG history of Malkionism, Gerlant and Talor made
>a show of being buddies in the face of the overpowering might of the
>Dark Empire in the 3rd Ecclesiastical Council.
Lords of Terror does says that Talor was killed in the storming of the City of Wonders. And even if LoT were wrong, how do you reconcile this with the fact that you think the Carmanians view him as Arkat's lieutenant?
>In 518 Nralar the Old
>took over for more than a century, and (at least in the published
>material) there is no evidence that he was a God Learner sympathizer.
But I didn't say the Atomists were friendly to the God Learners, did I? I merely said they were materialists in a big way. Having a look at the Galvosti Writeup, I see:
Even during the great persecutions of the Kings Ullmal and Meipal the God Learners continued to gain converts, especially from the Wizard caste.
King Ullmal was King of Seshnela circa 719 ST as you'll recall. My belief is that the two kings were persecuting the God Learners to shore up the Atomist faith. Remember, the God Learners didn't believe that Solace was a place on Earth, AFAIK. Major chnace to play Credo! here.
My guess is that Atomism first plays a major part in Seshnela when Bretnos starts to encourage the migrations to Jrustela and Umathela. Remember the search for Solace. I'm unsure yet about the evolution of Atomist Philsophy but I think it derives from the 'Rational Malkioni Mindset' trying to comprehend Concious HeroQuesting which we know was introduced during King Gerlant's rule.
>The materialists would have been imitators of the Arolanit Brithini,
>but I don't think that the Brithini were very popular at the end of
>the Gbaji wars.
If anybody is imitating anybody, I like to think that Zzabur's imitating the Atomists when he takes Brithos over to the other side.
I don't think the Atomists actually believed they had to live forever and follow strict caste Guidelines like the Brithini. My guess is that they felt they would be reincarnated if they lived a pure enough life (swiping some dogma from the Galvosti Writeup). When they reached Solace, the last pure place on Earth they would live forever.
[Second Age definitions of Hrestoli]
>>>I don't think so. IMO already the people of Akem thought of themselves
>>>as Hrestoli, to distinguish themselves from the Malkioni who still followed
>>>Froalar's way, and the Brithini.
>> The 'Malkioni who still followed Froalar's way' were full blown Pagans
>> in the eyes of the Malkioni in Fronela and would have been described as
>> such. They would have only used Hrestoli when contrasting themselves
>> with the Old Malkioni (who joined Malkion in his exile) and not the
>> Brithini.
>Froalar, not Ylream. Froalar was the king who led the Seshnegi through
>the last years of Darkness, happily married to Xemela. The forced marriage
>to Seshna Likita at the Dawn can't have lasted for long, IMO, and couldn't
>redefine several decades of bleak Malkionism before the Dawn. But yes,
>these would have been materialists.
I'm getting a wee bit lost here. By Froalar's way, you mean the way of pre-dawn Malkioni who followed the Prophet into Exile which is what I call the Old Malkioni, right? I thought this largely vanished (save for God Forgot and other dreary places) when the Serpent Kings took over. Remember the True Hrestoli Way condemned the Serpent Kings as pagans and we have independant confirmation of this with the RQ Companion's story that the Seshnegi imported several Gods to Hrelar Amali. After the Serpent Kings were the True Hrestol Way and the Silver Empire so I don't believe the Old Malkioni faith ever became ressurected in Seshnela. Thus the proto-Carmanians [at the time of the God Learner Intervention] using 'Hrestoli' to distinguish themselves from the Church of Seshnela is dubious.
And besides IMO, the Old Malkioni faith did believe in a spiritual Solace. They were however legalists and were finding the concept of Solace increasingly remote as time went by.
[Carmanian Knowlege of Seshnela and Ralios]
>> And what does this have to do about what the Carmanians know about
>> Ralios or Seshnela? The Carmanians know about Fronela. They
>> extrapolate what they know about Fronela to the Rest of the West.
>> They do not have detailed knowlege about the Rokari or even know
>> if the Castle Coast are not part of the Seshnegi Kingdom.
>Accurate for Carmania before the Thaw opened the Janube from Loskalm to
>Riverjoin, and past Charg to the Sweet Sea. Carmanian sailors were the
>first to contact the reopened West, and to meet sailors from Nolos and
>Pasos in Sog City.
Two things: I think the Janubian Sailorers would either be the Arrolian Refugees from Eastpoint and the Harangvats who are not quite Carmanian. Secondly contact with Sailors in a neutral port does not give the leaders complete and full knowlege of the faith of the the land from where the Sailors come from. Marco Polo undoubtedly met people from Japan and Indonesia while he was in China but that did not convey the leaders of Christendom at the time _full_ knowlege of what the Japanese or the Indonesians were like.
>> How would contact with
>> Rokari in Malkonwal confer the Carmanians with detailed knowlege of
>> Ye Olde Seshnelan Chivalry?
>By sharing the curses upon them with captive knights in honourable
>prison, middle crusader/muslim style. Richard's guys were fed up with
>all enemies of Seshnela, be it Nolos, Castle Coast, Holut, or Daran.
>With Heortland barbarians and Aeolians even more so, of course.
And this mechanism served to correct any misconceptions the Crusaders may have had about Allah or vice versa? I think not. Try and get some sense of proportion for the matter. I am saying that as of _now_ (1621) the Carmanians and the Lunar Empire (IMO) are just getting in information about what the Seshnegi are really like and not the extrapolations from Loskalm. I don't think they have heard of Castle Coast or even formulated a policy on what the Evils of the Rokari Church might be.
[True Mostali]
>> To confute your charges of Caste Crime: What did the Mostali fight with
>> _before_ they made the Iron Crucible? To whit before Death came and
>> Iron was invented, we are told that in DW24 'The Mostali fought in many
>> early battles, marching purposefully in the wake of Kargan Tor, War God
>> of the Celestial Court.'
>They performed feats of workmanship and inventiveness, Kargan Tor being
>the Celestial Court god of contests and conflicts. Their tendency to
>treat conflicts as sportive contests caused great losses to the cause of
>the World Machine before the Iron Crucible was constructed.
'In those days, a battle was decided by moral fortitude, _numerial_ _superiority_, _or_ by Champions engaging in a contest of their arts' Nice try, but I think Martin defended Orthodoxy better.
>> [True Mostali] are not
>> interested in caste's interests and duties, They are interested in
>> repairing the Machine. [Their Metal] only biases their perception
>> of What Needs to Be Done.
>And that means that they may not be interested in ruling clay dwarfs
>in matters outside of their perception.
No, but it does mean that they give the ruling Clay Dwarfs targets to go for. Isidilian may say 'I need 6 tonnes of Praxian Loess' for my latest project. The Council will try and reach that goal. If Isidilian doesn't get that Loess, he is highly likely to be pissed off and is likely to engage in some arm-twisting to get the Council to accede to his demands. IMO.
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