More Malkioni delving

From: Joerg Baumgartner <joe_at_sartar.toppoint.de>
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:20:06 MET


Peter Metcalfe

> [Atomism]

> Troll Gods says that the Arkati fought against the Outer Atomic
> Explorers who were then followed by the God Learners. Considering
> the Arkati were in Ralios and the Jrustela was the homeland of the God
> Learners, I think it follows that the Atomists were likely to be the
> Ruling Faith in Seshnela when they were continually fighting against
> the Arkati before the Return to Rightness Crusade.

I think that the OAEs were an early God Learner organisation, similar to the Nochet-based guys who raided the cult of Drolgard around 572 ST.

>>According to the USCCG history of Malkionism, Gerlant and Talor made
>>a show of being buddies in the face of the overpowering might of the
>>Dark Empire in the 3rd Ecclesiastical Council.

> Lords of Terror does says that Talor was killed in the storming of
> the City of Wonders.

So what? Afterwards he led his victorious survivors back to Fronela. Heroes killed in action aren't yet out of the game...

> And even if LoT were wrong, how do you
> reconcile this with the fact that you think the Carmanians view him
> as Arkat's lieutenant?

I didn't say that the Carmanians viewed him that way, at least not after he parted company and returned to Fronela. I am quite positive that Talor knew Arkat personally, which means that he was in Seshnela between 400 and 418.

>>In 518 Nralar the Old
>>took over for more than a century, and (at least in the published
>>material) there is no evidence that he was a God Learner sympathizer.

> But I didn't say the Atomists were friendly to the God Learners, did
> I? I merely said they were materialists in a big way.

I believe that the OAEs were one of the early experimental Jrusteli movements which participated in forming the "picture" of the Invisible God.

Or did Gerlant's creed include chivalrous questing of the heroplane? Nick?

> Having a look at the Galvosti Writeup,

>From HtWW1?

> I see:

> Even during the great persecutions of the Kings Ullmal and Meipal
> the God Learners continued to gain converts, especially from the
> Wizard caste.

> King Ullmal was King of Seshnela circa 719 ST as you'll recall. My
> belief is that the two kings were persecuting the God Learners to shore
> up the Atomist faith.

You're starting from totally different premises, so I will try not to repeat the hero disagreement when you tied the possession of a star to your definition of herodom.

> Remember, the God Learners didn't believe that
> Solace was a place on Earth, AFAIK. Major chance to play Credo! here.

The God Learners tried to find out what or where Solace was, and searched in all directions, IMO. One direction may well have been materialist.

> If anybody is imitating anybody, I like to think that Zzabur's
> imitating the Atomists when he takes Brithos over to the other
> side.

Nice idea, whatever and wherever the Atomists were.

> I don't think the Atomists actually believed they had to live
> forever and follow strict caste Guidelines like the Brithini.
> My guess is that they felt they would be reincarnated if they
> lived a pure enough life (swiping some dogma from the Galvosti
> Writeup). When they reached Solace, the last pure place on Earth
> they would live forever.

Back to the Kingdom of Logic? The paradise in the Far West?

> [Second Age definitions of Hrestoli]

>>Froalar, not Ylream. Froalar was the king who led the Seshnegi through
>>the last years of Darkness, happily married to Xemela. The forced marriage
>>to Seshna Likita at the Dawn can't have lasted for long, IMO, and couldn't
>>redefine several decades of bleak Malkionism before the Dawn. But yes,
>>these would have been materialists.

> I'm getting a wee bit lost here. By Froalar's way, you mean the
> way of pre-dawn Malkioni who followed the Prophet into Exile which
> is what I call the Old Malkioni, right?

Actually, my picture of Froalar's way (before Seshna Likita) was the run-down Malkionism which had lost much of the meaning it had when the Prophet still lived.

> I thought this largely
> vanished (save for God Forgot and other dreary places) when the
> Serpent Kings took over.

What do you think the people of Akem were before Hrestol's revelation reached them? And I don't know how universally accepted Hrestol's way was outside of Seshnela - those who did not accept it will have remained this way.

> Remember the True Hrestoli Way condemned
> the Serpent Kings as pagans and we have independant confirmation
> of this with the RQ Companion's story that the Seshnegi imported
> several Gods to Hrelar Amali.

According to Broken Council Guidebook, they burned it rather than to import new deities...

> After the Serpent Kings were the
> True Hrestol Way and the Silver Empire so I don't believe the Old
> Malkioni faith ever became ressurected in Seshnela. Thus the
> proto-Carmanians [at the time of the God Learner Intervention] using
> 'Hrestoli' to distinguish themselves from the Church of Seshnela is
> dubious.

True - the term Hrestoli is used to distinguish themselves from the Janubian forms of Malkionism, at least in Martin's history of Fronelan Malkionism in Codex 2. The Janubians may have been big fans of Talor, too.

And Syranthir's band may have included both Loskalmi and Janubian Malkioni...

>>Accurate for Carmania before the Thaw opened the Janube from Loskalm to
>>Riverjoin, and past Charg to the Sweet Sea. Carmanian sailors were the
>>first to contact the reopened West, and to meet sailors from Nolos and
>>Pasos in Sog City.

> Two things: I think the Janubian Sailorers would either be the
> Arrolian Refugees from Eastpoint and the Harangvats who are not
> quite Carmanian.

But under the auspices of Carmanian wizards (sorry, forgot the native term. Loren, do the Carmanians confess to their wizards?

> Secondly contact with Sailors in a neutral port
> does not give the leaders complete and full knowlege of the faith
> of the the land from where the Sailors come from. Marco Polo
> undoubtedly met people from Japan and Indonesia while he was in
> China but that did not convey the leaders of Christendom at the
> time _full_ knowlege of what the Japanese or the Indonesians
> were like.

I agree - but they will hear about a conflict, and the wizards will try to figure out what it's about from the information available to them, i.e. vague memories of 1st Age Seshnela. Thus my proposal that they'd class the Rokari Linealists and the Castle Coast Idealists.

>>By sharing the curses upon them with captive knights in honourable
>>prison, middle crusader/muslim style. Richard's guys were fed up with
>>all enemies of Seshnela, be it Nolos, Castle Coast, Holut, or Daran.
>>With Heortland barbarians and Aeolians even more so, of course.

> And this mechanism served to correct any misconceptions the Crusaders
> may have had about Allah or vice versa? I think not.

No, it creates new ones.

> Try and get
> some sense of proportion for the matter. I am saying that as of _now_
> (1621) the Carmanians and the Lunar Empire (IMO) are just getting in
> information about what the Seshnegi are really like and not the
> extrapolations from Loskalm. I don't think they have heard of Castle
> Coast or even formulated a policy on what the Evils of the Rokari
> Church might be.

Fine. Then let's regard our discussion as an example of the ongoing truth-finding progress in Carmania, following Martin's proposal.

Nick Brooke

>> Were the Second Age Seshnegi "Gerlanti"?

> I think so, in essence, though I'm not sure they'd have used the term:
> "We're *Malkioni*, Goddamnit, not Gerlanti!"

You mean: We're _true_ Malkioni, and they are not!"

> In my Castle Coast sect
> writeup (available by anonymous FTP from <ftp.csua.berkeley.edu> in
> pub/runequest/malkioni) you'll find they're particularly keen on Saint
> Gerlant:

As you might remember, I did defend the CC's positions at HtWW1/Leicester.

Still, you yourself stated that they were the continuation of the God L<slam> ... pre-sinking Seshnegi church of Malkion, so they're not necessarily very similar to 3rd century Seshnegi Malkionism.

> Joerg:
>> Froalar was the king who led the Seshnegi through the last years of
>> Darkness, happily married to Xemela. The forced marriage to Seshna
>> Likita at the Dawn can't have lasted for long, IMO, and couldn't
>> redefine several decades of bleak Malkionism before the Dawn.

> I think your 'O' is wrong here: the "forced" (eh?) marriage founded a
> dynasty of Serpent Kings, whose people worshipped the Goddess Seshna
> as mother and founder of the royal line.
> ... King Froalar was reborn after his death in the
> form of a temple serpent with the head of a King, was worshipped, and
> (I believe) can still be found to this day if you penetrate his sealed
> temple cum tomb complex on some ruined island of Old Seshnela. Not
> that you'd want to meet him...

So he's still married to her? Thanks for this information, who is going to write up the scenario where questing knights can meet him?

Not I want to meet him, just some PCs I might happen to referee...

> _____________________
> Carmanians' Knowledge

> Generally, on Loren's draft Carmanian writeup, I'd side with Peter
> against Joerg. I think the world becomes a more interesting place if
> people start off knowing less about it. It's easier and more fun to
> introduce new players and new parts of the world if you don't have to
> describe and define an all-encompassing worldview first.

Maybe in your game. To me as a player being the dumb-ass green boy who never saw more than his farm is a clichee I was forced to play so often that I can go through that in my sleep, and when the information begins to flow the campaign folds. No thanks... that's Minimal Game Fun to me.

> It also feels
> truer to the "ancient" paradigm of Glorantha: look how much detailed
> knowledge your average ancient-worlder had of his distant neighbours'
> beliefs, and *then* factor in the Syndics Ban and close to a thousand
> years of separate history.

I think that the educated Greek Mercenary of the pre-Xerxes era is a good model for Gloranthan adventurers, especially if you allow some cultural diversity in your party.

I don't know if it has been translated into English, but I recommend Josef Nyary's ancients novels "I, Aras, Have Seen" and "Nimrod's Last Hunt". Oh, and Sprague de Camp's "Bessas the Warrior".

> Put it another way: how much do mainstream Rokari and Hrestoli know
> about the Carmanians, eh?

Little enough that they were fooled by the Lunar scam at Soc City... Which is why Loren had to write up the church you and David left out for HtWW1.

[paraphrasing: Carmanian knights' contacts don't change the base of Carmanian knowledge of the outside.]
> But basic Carmanian knowledge
> of foreign, "God-Learnt" Malkionism should come under a blanket
> banner: leave it for players to discover the flavour and texture
> of individual sects.

Ok, then give me the tools to play Carmanian knights stationed in Sartar or Tarsh.

> I think this is a General Gloranthan Truth, not just applicable
> to Carmanians. I think normal characters should be partial, prejudiced
> and ignorant.

But not in a way that they cannot change their perceptions, please! How will you recruit replacements for fallen comrades in for'n lands otherwise?

> I don't want my Carmanian viziers to be able to bone
> up on the fine points of Rokari doctrine from guidebooks prior to
> an encounter: I want them to experience life for themselves, not
> "know it all already" from general cultural "willingness to learn".
> The only folk who go out of their way to assimilate other peoples'
> points of view were the Vadeli and the God Learners, AFAIK.

Not assimilate, but dissect with a sharp scalpel. How can I refute a doctrine but for rethoric tricks?

>> [Tapping? Do Carmanians allow Tapping? I'd be inclined to say that
>> only the Magi may learn Tap, and it may only be used on foreigners
>> and enemies.]

> That sounds right. Most of the arguments about Tapping read like God
> Learners faffing about with logic to me; the Carmanians are well out
> of this one.

How about Tapping on volunteers?

Finally, a stray into the Mostali stuff:
> Joerg:
>> the _objective_ [Mostali] history from DW 24?

> That was by the man who wrote the objectively-titled article "Why I
> Dislike Mostali", wasn't it? :-)

The same man who dislikes Humakt yet produced a whole write-up for this cult in Tales 5?

But who likes Mostali, they themselves included?

End of Glorantha Digest V2 #268


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