Less nitpicky than before...

From: Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe_at_student.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:53:25 +1300


With regards to the yellow flag incurred for violating rule #3, What can I say?

Joerg Baumgartner:
Yeah, I agree? :)


>...even the Brithini had experienced death and old age
>during both Greater Darkness and Gray Age.

Brithini experiencing Old Age? How did this come about?

>Were there other civilised peoples in pre-Dawn Fronela? Apart from the
>Blue People of the Sweet Sea (and likely the upper Janube) and
>occasional Waertagi visits, I don't expect any.

There was the rumoured Third Eye Blue Kingdom of Fronela. They are now said to have come from elsewhere (ie Pelande etc) as they are related to the Blue People. However some sorcerers did make it up the Janube from Sog City to Pelande.

>Peter himself said that the Old Malkioni did not uniformly accept the
>new creed.

No, no, no! I said they did not accept the new creed _uniformly_. Some may have changed a lot in accepting Hrestol's relevation whilst others little at all.

Joerg seems to be uncertain what is meant by 'Joy of the Heart'. It seems that he is thinking in terms of proggressionalism (ie advancing through the castes). This IMO is an extremely narrow intepretation of what Hrestol _taught_ and is mainly held by the Loskalmi for analretentive  reasons of their own.

When I think of the impact of Hrestol's relevations, the Primary effect is that it struck down the _Legalism_ of the Old Malkioni.

Before Hrestol, everybody is brickshitting about violating a taboo and impassioned debates occur among the wizards about what is Taboo, (ie is using a knife and a fork tool use and if so what Caste should be allowed to use them) and playing Count the Wrinkles to see Who is Right. And having wrinkles is a sure sign according to the Old Malkioni that one is not going to Solace.

Hrestol changes all this when he breaks the rules, is seen to be visibly aging and yet ascends into Solace. The key thing is he did it all for a Good Cause. He violated the Castes to save his people from being exterminated by the Basmoli, frex. Nobody has to worry anymore about dying and not going to Solace as long as one as lived a good life. The Wizards junk all the trivial rules and the happiness and spiritual welfare of your average Malkioni takes a Great Leap forward.

Obviously not _all_ rules can be broken (Hrestol never worships a foreign god, frex) for not everybody was good and pure as Hrestol to do the things that he did and be assured of Solace. Others might ask 'How far can one go'. We know that Hrestol venerated Malkion but can one venerate foreign gods and still attain solace? Can one worship Malkion etc? The focus of the society changes from trying to determine whether every trivial act damns one from Solace _to_ what is the best form of Malkioni society so that the average believer is assured of Solace after death.

As an example, we turn to your picture of the Akemites. After word of Hrestol's matyrdom spreads around, the Akemites might split into three main groups:

Conservatives: Abandon Legalism. They would still maintain the Spartan castes.

Venerators: Abandon Legalism. They still maintain the 'spartan' Castes. They permit veneration of the Saints.

Progressionalists: Abandon Legalism. They (or at least selected members) progress through the Castes. They abjure Saintly worship.

But all of them are much more _happier_ than they were prior to Hrestol's Martyrdom. And none of them are anal-retentive as they were before Hrestol.

>[people the proto-Carmanians would feel the need to demonstrate their
>difference to:]

Wrong paraphrase: The debate was why they should call themselves _Hrestoli_ compared with whom. If Joerg was actually arguing the above all along (which is entirely possible), then I shall cease to argue about this particular matter forthwith.

[pre-Arkat Henothiest Janubians]

I said the pre-Arkat Henotheist Janubians are dead by the time of the God Learner intervention.

>Why? Arkat never came to Fronela. The Hrestoli from Akem/Loskalm did
>not necessarily conquer as much of Fronela as the God Learners did. The
>Janubian city-states had a proud history of following their own ways.

Then why did you say pre-Arkat? Why not simply say contemporary Janubians? Then the chances of use getting a yellow flag would be much reduced. As for the Janubian Malkioni (henothiest or otherwise), I don't think the original Janubian Malkioni did survive the Wars of Varganthyr the Unconquerable Knight and the Kingdom of Beasts. They had all fled to Loskalm where they eventually travelled with Syranthir or adopted the God Learner Creed. I think by the time Syranthir made his famous march, Janube had become completely barbarized and it is only through Sterling Efforts by the Second Age Loskalm (and exiles like Galastar) that Malkioni began once again dominant in the River Valley.

[Hrelar Amali]

>RQ Companion has the
>obscure mention - recorded by 3rd Age Kethaelan Lhankor Mhytes - that
>"the Seshnegi" erected temples to Orlanth and Magasta in Hrelar Amali
>when they conquered the land. Does this mean the God Learner empire with
>seat in Seshnela? The inclusion of Magasta makes this likely, and no
>other Seshnegi power ever conquered parts of Safelster before.)

I doubt this. The God Learners worshipped Wachaza from 718 ST to 835 ST. (Magasta was killed at the battle of Tanian's Victory and not ressurected until the Fireberg Crisis IMO).

What's wrong with the Serpent Kings? They worshipped Magasta as the Sea God, not being estranged from the Waertagi yet. The Shrine to Orlanth was probably to Humath or another Storm God and converted to Orlanth either by the World Council or Lokaymadon. When the Serpent Kings die out and the True Hrestol Way takes power in Seshnela, Tanisor and the lands beyond it are ungovernable since the people there have been pagan since the Dawn. The idea that the Seshnegi conquered the lands (they may have peacefully joined the Serpent Kings IMO) is probably the result of Grey Sages being addled as normal.

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