And I still say that the changes did matter to the man in the field. Under Nysalor's reign, foreign cults' magics were available to those who had listened to the riddlers long enough. Like Earthwarm for Kerofini winters, or Cloudcall for Dara Happan rice farmers...
During the EWF Life (i.e. Fertility) was built up tremendously, and could be focussed by those steeped in draconic wisdom. Nifty for farming, isn't it?
> Nothing Joerg has written has addressed this.
Oh, it did, but Peter didn't read that, it seems.
Peter says that a maximum of 10% of the inhabitants were inhabitants of the cities. True.
But:
You cannot live within a day's march of a city and not notice at all what happens there. When for instance the Mennonites in Muenster ran religious amok, all the countryside learned about that in no time short.
If your clan priests gain their special (per RQ rules "common divine") spells from a larger temple, then any change of doctrine at that temple will demand an adaption of the rural priest to these changes, or "no Heal Wound, no Sanctify".
> The only time he has come close in mentioning Sartarite Rebels as
> an example of a modern tattooed Orlanthi as counterpoint to the
> claim that the Orlanthi _leaders_ of bygone ages were tattooed and
> the modern urban Orlanthi are not. [I had already mentioned Kallyr
> Starbrow as an exception.]
> Were the Kings of Sartar tattooed? Was Duke Dorasar?
No. The members of the Royal House of Sartar were civilized Kethaelans, for Belintar's sake, and not even necessarily worshippers of Orlanth to begin with. Certainly they were _not_ mainstream Orlanthi leaders. As infused with foreign ideas as King Phargentes of Tarsh, or Fazzur Wideread.
> The only people he can point to are religious fanatics
> (mostly humakti) and _not_ the mainstream leaders of Orlanthi
> Society.
Who are the mainstream leaders of Orlanthi society? Yrsa Nightbeam, initiate of Kyger Litor and Queen of the Torkani? Harvar Ironfist, initiate of Yelm? Urrgh the Ugly?
I'm fairly certain Queen Leika Ballista wore "that tattoo too". Hofstaring Treeleaper would have. Kallai Rockbuster would. Sarostip Cold-eye would.
Garaystar Flatnose wouldn't. Neither would Minaryth Purple or Gringle Goodsell.
Most of these people are members of the 1613 Sartar High Council. Some did support the rebellion afterwards, others didn't, tattooed and untattooed in both groups.
Ok, a counter-example: When Blackmor the Rabbit publicly converted to 7Moms, he received a red-coloured facial skin (in one of the Home of the Bold runs, if not in both).
> Whereas in the Broken Council Freeform, virtually all
> the Orlanthi Leaders (say for the urbane Dorastorans) had such a
> tattoo.
Yes. Or at least woad paintings. So what? Half of them rebelled against the council, half of them supported its ways.
Actually, I fail to see the point in this tattoo obsession of Peter. We know that the EWF introduce a different, distinctive style of clothing etc. overnight in its territories (along with the dart, which has remained in use throughout its former territory).
> I also said that only in the modern Orlanthi 'Civilization' (ie the
> tribal system of Alakoring) are clan surpluses being redistributed
> within the clan
I must have overlooked that. Well, so clan surpluses aren't traded in the Dragon Pass kingdoms? What do the Colymar clans do with all their clearwine?
And the redistribution of surpluses within one's kin is hardly what I would call "modern". Neolithic hunters did distribute their surpluses.
> as opposed to the 'Orlanthi' empires where it went
> to the cities in the form of taxes.
Like Sartar, Tarsh, Aggar, Talastar, you mean? Bolthor didn't need the Lunars to grab his taxes from the farmers.
> And source for this Old Day Traditionalists adopted the EWF to
> destroy it from within?
KoS. They accepted the draconized cults by attending their ceremonies, leting their mana join that of the fervent dragonfriends, allowing it to be channeled to the awakening Great Dragon.
From where the local wise men could rechannel it into increased fertility to all, past the Bless Crops crap.
>>The tragedy about civilized Orlanthi is that they lose their cultural >>identity and become relatively easy prey for whatever "new" religion is >>dominant [examples snipped].
> Complete Bullshit.
So?
> Do the Aeolians think that they are not Orlanthi?
No. Do other people around here think they are Orlanthi? Certainly not the Rokari invaders.
Are they the same breed as a Brolian Orlanthi? The same creed? No.
Do they have the same laws and crimes? No.
> Was the fall of the Kingdom of Sartar due to a loss of cultural
> identity?
Would you say it was in character for an Orlanthi tribal federation to fall before the Empire's power?
But one reason for the fall of Sartar _at that time_ was their kings' interference with the Lunar affairs in Tarsh earlier, like their support for Palashee Longaxe, Jarolor's involvement in the Aldachuri resistance against Phargentes' invasion of the seditious Far Point tribes, or Tarkalor's meddling in the Bagnot Exiles' defense. Traditional Orlanthi kings would have aided the Lunars now and then, not consequently oppose them.
> Did the cult of Orlanth Dragonfriend think they were
> draconists supplanting the worship of Orlanth?
No. Did Alakoring think they were? Yes.
> Did Lokaymadon think he was destroying Orlanthi worship?
No. Did Harmast think so? Yes.
> The majority of Joerg's reply made great mention about the civilised
> achievements of the past empires among the Orlanthi managing to
> completely _miss_ my point that the plight of the rural Orlanthi
> changed little.
What plight? Do you mean the annual sequence of sowing, tending, and harvesting? That wouldn't have changed if they had become Brithini.
So, I have to ask Peter:
Were these rural dummy farmers without any distinctive religious mark? If so, you actually made my point, in that case they had become civilized.
Were they Orlanthi with an active interest in their spiritual lives? In that case those within a day's travel of a temple were infected, or at least affected, by the greater changes.
And town density was much greater than in modern Dragon Pass, if Hrestol Arganitis - an urban type merchant-explorer of colonialist blend who'd likely snigger at what the Sartarites call cities - named as towns or cities without adjectives like "squalid".
The cities Hrestol Arganitis mentions don't cover half the known EWF ruins of Dragon Pass, let alone those who were overbuilt by post-Dragonkill settlers, or those which have disappeared into obscurity. He mentions "only the most interesting, and largest, cities" in his report...
>>Ok, maybe this did not touch all (85%) of the Orlanthi, but definitely >>more than half of them, enough so that a generalization can be used. >>Unless you describe rural as "living two days hard ride from the next >>stead"...
> The only material
> change to the rural Orlanthi would have been to whom they paid
> their taxes, how much they paid their taxes and what type of soldiers
> would have been sent to rape pillage and plunder if they didn't pay
> their taxes.
Well, it does make a difference whether:
a neighbouring clan raids, impregnates the women, carries of the cattle and maybe some women,
or
Palangio's troops come on a punitive raid, rape the men, carry off whole families as slaves or for resettlement, crucify the sheep,
or
dragonewts come and eat every tenth villager because they failed to pay their taxes.
Especially the rural populace was affected by the settling policy of the 2nd Council - northern Ralios was conquered from the Vustrians by the river valley settlers, and only then defended by the monster troops.
Losing every boy coming of age who attempts to become initiated to Orlanth the old way doesn't affect the farming communities of Lokamayadon's era?
Having a stead near the Ormsthere Valley (he went only later) does affect one's general life, don't you think? Being able to parlay with dragonewts, or even to dispel dream dragons, did affect the EWF farmers.
When Drang was slain by Alakoring and lots of (rural as well as urban) priests who had lent their essence (much like the Lunar schools aiding the super-Sunspear against Harrek) to the fight suffered from the repercussions, do you think the rural Orlanthi relying on these very priests were unaffected?
Having the alternative as a younger son to go to a city, the standing army, or the draconic hierarchy, instead of just clearing another patch of unsuitable soil in overcrowded Dragon Pass of Hrestol Arganitis doesn't change a villager's perspective?
Middle 2nd Age Dragon Pass wasn't that different from 3rd Age Esrolia for the farmers, IMO. The almighty cult provided increased fertility for everyone.
Late 2nd Age Dragon Pass had whole communities becoming one with the dragons, departing from the mundane plane.
These were the Orlanthi I talk about, and by no measure just city types.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #313
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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