>I imagine from the description of sorcery as Gloranthan
>science that it represents an attempt to understand the mind of God
>through the use of received Zzaburian observations.
Strictly tho, Zzabur does not believe in the Invisible God. His (and brithini in general) conception of the Creator is more akin to our theories about the Big Bang. The communion with the Invisble God came later and Zzabur never accepted it.
The dichometry between sorcery and the invisible god is that sorcery was discovered before Malkion became aware of the Invisible God (he was a Lawgiver before he was a Prophet). That is why efforts to harmonize the two ('Spells are Prayers!' from the Rokari PoV) are reminscent (IMO) of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch....
Nils Weinander:
Nils corrects me on the GL empire's Extremely Sophisticated Specialized Magical Prowess and the Eastern Seas Empire.
>Oh yes they did. The Mokato empire was based on cooperation and mutual
>benefit, not conquest. Just about everybody (except the Haragalans who
>are on top now perhaps) were really well off under Mokato's rule: lots
>of friendly trade and no pirates.
The Haragalans were not really well off under the Eastern Seas Empire? Was it a prision camp or something?
Me>>EWF: Ruled by the Dragons to whom the niceties of human culture
>>were immaterial.
>Hm? I thought it was ruled by humans who learned draconic secrets and tried
>to integrate human and draconic concepts.
Whose perceptions became so alien in doing so that they appear callous and self-serving to us. In particular the Here-and-nows.
>The Artmali empire. Little is known of that today, but it is supposed to
>have been really advanced.
I really assume its technological and material culture to be along the lines of Old Kingdom Egypt. It was very powerfully spiritually considering that Artmal ruled all Pamaltela but we have no real understanding of its vanished culture (like did they organize themselves under a bureacracy with Artmal as the Inca? Or was Artmal's Empire merely a massive (now vanished) city state that compelled tribute from all other Blue Cities like the Aztecs?) The Successor states (Jraktalian Fonrit and God-knows-what in Zamokil) may have been more advanced than this but they didn't have the power to rule over vast distances like Artmal did.
>Dara Happa. You can't deny its importance.
I had it in the original list. I edited it out (along with Greater Loskalm, Kalabraian Fonrit and Carmania). Most of its customs have been incoprorated into the Lunar Empire so I doubt that it is more highly cultured than the Lunar Empire.
Joerg Baumgartner:
Looking at the yellow flag of Loren hanging over my head, I go into the heavy paraphrase mode again. I suggest Joerg might like to do the same for his next reply.
>You cannot live within a day's march of a city and not notice at all
>what happens there. When for instance the Mennonites in Muenster ran
>religious amok, all the countryside learned about that in no time
>short.
But did the folk in the countryside _adopt_ the ways of the Mennonite cause? That is the crux of my arguement. Merely knowing about it does not mean that one joins it or even approves of it. Over a long period of time it would have. My model for the EWF influence over the Orlanthi is a top-down model like Christianity among the pagans (Vikings Lithuanians etc) in the middle ages: At first the leader is converted then it begins to reach down the social strata.
>If your clan priests gain their special (per RQ rules "common divine")
>spells from a larger temple, then any change of doctrine at that temple
>will demand an adaption of the rural priest to these changes, or "no
>Heal Wound, no Sanctify".
Ugh! Quoting from the Rules! Wash your mouth out with Enlo Urine! Do you honestly think Orlanth Godi's are hierachal and dogmatic as that? I could accept the Rokari adopting the such a method for the village priest who wants to learn how to invoke St Mardron, say. But the Orlanthi religious system is non-centralised. There is _no_ Orlanth mandated religious position beyond that of a Godi.
>> Were the Kings of Sartar tattooed? Was Duke Dorasar?
>No. The members of the Royal House of Sartar were civilized Kethaelans,
>for Belintar's sake, and not even necessarily worshippers of Orlanth
>to begin with. Certainly they were _not_ mainstream Orlanthi leaders.
>As infused with foreign ideas as King Phargentes of Tarsh, or
>Fazzur Wideread.
Erm so the people of Esrolia aren't Orlanthi? You are far too hung up about the One True Way of Orlanthi Lifestyle. There is *no* *such* *creature*. A civilized Kethaelan is just as much an Orlanthi as a Brolian savage. The way of the Orlanthi is *not* firm and unchanging.
What I am proposing is that at the time of the Bright Empire and the EWF, the rural Orlanthi were very similar to the Brolians and the Vustrian Highlanders. Since the reforms of Alakoring Dragonbreaker, the Dragon Pass Orlanthi have become materially more successful about halfway between that of the Kethaelan Orlanthi and the Vustrians.
>Who are the mainstream leaders of Orlanthi society? Yrsa Nightbeam,
>initiate of Kyger Litor and Queen of the Torkani? Harvar Ironfist,
>initiate of Yelm? Urrgh the Ugly?
You forget that modern Sartar is a society in flux, having the mainstream Orlanthi leadership decaptiated and replaced by a hostile religion intent on destroying it.
>Actually, I fail to see the point in this tattoo obsession of Peter.
Joerg should go into a tattooist and ask for a facial tattoo and tell the guy that he doesn't want any of the girly stuff of electric needles. Getting a tattoo in the old style is an *Ordeal*. Thus the process is likely to be accompained by some *ectastic* ritual. I'm using this as an indicator of how 'primitive' (I hope John H. doesn't complain) the Old Orlanthi were spiritually.
Taxes:
Joerg seems to delight in obscuring the points I am making about the disposal of clan surpluses. My point is that in the old days they were collected as _taxes_ by the city using their officials. This sustained a higher level of urbanization in Dragon Pass as evidenced in the report of Hrestol Arganitis (which Joerg mentions). The underside of this is that the city is less responsive to the farmers. So what if crops returns are down by one part in twenty? 'You're fined two cattle for complaining, scumbag!'
The modern Orlanthi tribal system has the disposal of surpluses in the hands of the tribal and clan lords. The best lands are farmed for the benefit of the tribe and clan. The chief _sells_ the excess grain to the city who gives him what he wants like bronze hauberks.
[The plight of the rural Orlanthi changing little during the Empires]
>What plight? Do you mean the annual sequence of sowing, tending, and
>harvesting? That wouldn't have changed if they had become Brithini.
I am talking about the _wealth_ of the peasantry. The material wealth enjoyed by the peasantry allows them to buy a better plough or have horseshoes for the horses and all that. The Bright Empire and the EWF had very little change on all this.
[Old Day Traditionalists]
>> And source for this Old Day Traditionalists adopted the EWF to
>> destroy it from within?
>KoS. They accepted the draconized cults by attending their ceremonies,
>leting their mana join that of the fervent dragonfriends, allowing it
>to be channeled to the awakening Great Dragon.
>From where the local wise men could rechannel it into increased fertility
>to all, past the Bless Crops crap.
page number for all this? The ODT aren't mentioned in KoS and Book 1 of the Genertela boxed set paints a different view.
[tragedy of civilized orlanthi]
>[I characterised a paragraph Joerg wrote as complete bullshit]
>So?
Well why did you post it then?
>> Do the Aeolians think that they are not Orlanthi?
>No. Do other people around here think they are Orlanthi? Certainly not
>the Rokari invaders. Are they the same breed as a Brolian Orlanthi?
>The same creed? No. Do they have the same laws and crimes? No.
But they are _still_ civilized Orlanthi. What other people say about them has no bearing on the fact that they view Orlanth as the Supreme God.
>> Was the fall of the Kingdom of Sartar due to a loss of cultural
>> identity?
>Would you say it was in character for an Orlanthi tribal federation
>to fall before the Empire's power?
Why not? barbarian tribes have a bad habit of falling prey to civilized empires. The Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain is an excellent example of this.
>But one reason for the fall of Sartar _at that time_ was their kings'
>interference with the Lunar affairs in Tarsh earlier, [examples snipped]
>Traditional Orlanthi kings would have aided the Lunars now and then, not
>consequently oppose them.
I'm sure Orlanth would have approved of the 'enlightened self-interest'. Look at it from their point of view. The Lunar Empire has snaffed up Vanch and Holay and is warring against Tarsh. They also are worshipping the Red Moon whose cry is 'Down with Orlanth'. Do you honestly think that if they _aided_ the Lunar Empire in their conquest of Tarsh, Mr Red Emperor is _not_ going to squash them? Or that when the Tarshites have become Lunarized that they are going to be real nice friends with the Kingdom of Sarter? Or to invoke a real world example: Were the tribes of Britian not being true to their gods when they helped the Gauls against the Romans?
Finally Joerg asks some questions. These are short and consise enough, that I find them difficult to paraphrase.
>Were these rural dummy farmers without any distinctive religious mark?
>If so, you actually made my point, in that case they had become civilized.
Mark? I didn't say they were dummies. I am saying that they were *conservative*. The communities did not change much over the years. The Bright Empire was too shortlived to make a material change whereas by the time the Draconic Philosophy was reaching those in the fields, it had become an oppressive philosophy. If the Draconic Philosopy was so overreaching as to make everybody a Draconists, there would not have been any untainted Orlanthi in Dragon Pass or the nearby regions for Alakoring to teach the cult of Orlanth Rex to.
>Were they Orlanthi with an active interest in their spiritual lives? In
>that case those within a day's travel of a temple were infected, or at
>least affected, by the greater changes.
Generally the farmers working out in the field didn't have the time to study the details of Draconic Philosopy or illumination IMO. Those that were affected by the draconists or the Riddlers and wanted to learn more, generally went to the cities and _stayed_ there.
>> The only material change to the rural Orlanthi would have been to whom
>> they paid their taxes, how much they paid their taxes and what type of
>> soldiers would have been sent to rape pillage and plunder if they didn't
>> pay their taxes.
>Well, it does make a difference whether:
[charming description of atrocities committed by a neighbouring clan, the Bright Empire and the EWF]
I agree. We are not arguing about this but what further effect the Empires had on the life of the people. I say that the rural communities changed very little.
Joerg then mentions specific changes to the lifestyle that he thinks occured during the Bright Empire and the EWF.
>Especially the rural populace was affected by the settling policy of
>the 2nd Council - northern Ralios was conquered from the Vustrians by
>the river valley settlers, and only then defended by the monster troops.
From the Vustrians who now lived in the Highlands and maintained their Old Ways until Lokaymadon's 'reforms'. Even that did not quench their dissent for Harmast came from there.
>Losing every boy coming of age who attempts to become initiated to
>Orlanth the old way doesn't affect the farming communities of
>Lokamayadon's era?
I am viewing this as a sort of a religious tax enforced by magical means. In any case, Lokaymadon was drawing upon his experiences as to what Orlanthi religion should be like. Since he was an orthodox Orlanthi before his illumination, I think the major change in his cult was how power was organized in Orlanthi Society. The average New Wind supporter (ie those living in the cities of Kerofinela who weren't compelled to worship the New Wind) did not depilate themselves like the Dorastans did nor did they start to fancy little boys like the Dara Happans IMO. They still maintained the Old Ways but they organized themselves as Lokaymadon said (perhaps the codification of clan law) and their mysteries were deepened by Nysalorian Insights.
Joerg then mentions that in the Bright Empire, foreign cult magics were avaliable to those who had listened to the riddlers like Earthwarm for the Orlanthi and Cloudcall for the Rice farmers.
One: the Kerofini do know of Earthwarm (Quivin) spells and the Dara Happans do know of weather control spells (Entekos and Shafesora). This premise stems from a perception that the pantheons are split along elemental lines which is totally and utterly *wrong*.
Two: One can introduce foreign cults without listening to or even needing the riddlers. Humakt is a good one. There is no canon of Orlanthi acceptable gods.
The EWF:
>During the EWF Life (i.e. Fertility) was built up tremendously, and
>could be focussed by those steeped in draconic wisdom. Nifty for
>farming, isn't it?
All this is sheer supposition. For starters, the 'newt and wyrm tutors of the EWF don't have agriculture. So what need is there of an agricultural tradition that the EWF can exploit?
>Having a stead near the Ormsthere Valley (he went only later) does
>affect one's general life, don't you think? Being able to parlay with
>dragonewts, or even to dispel dream dragons, did affect the EWF farmers.
What makes you think the average farmer knew how to speak Draconic or dispel the Dream dragons? Wouldn't the headman go to the Diet of Wyrms in the city and ask for the Drconic Mages there to help him out?
>When Drang was slain by Alakoring and lots of (rural as well as urban)
>priests who had lent their essence (much like the Lunar schools aiding
>the super-Sunspear against Harrek) to the fight suffered from the
>repercussions, do you think the rural Orlanthi relying on these very
>priests were unaffected?
What makes you think these Priests were Orlanthi Godis of the rural communities. To me they seem like Civic Leaders and Urban Draconists.
>Having the alternative as a younger son to go to a city, the standing
>army, or the draconic hierarchy, instead of just clearing another patch
>of unsuitable soil in overcrowded Dragon Pass of Hrestol Arganitis
>doesn't change a villager's perspective?
But the younger son in doing so has in effect become _urban_ and is no longer counted as rural. This is known as rural replacement. The RW cities were such filthy squalid things that they relied on rural immigration to maintain their population stability until recently. A similar principle ought to hold for Glorantha. And before you quote Hrestol Arganitis again, do you think that the God Learner Cities were clean healthy places?
>Middle 2nd Age Dragon Pass wasn't that different from 3rd Age Esrolia for
>the farmers, IMO. The almighty cult provided increased fertility for
>everyone.
I disagree on the fertility aspect and I disagree that the farmers of the middle EWF were the same as Esrolians. FWIW I believe that the 'fertility' of Esrolia is nothing special.
>Late 2nd Age Dragon Pass had whole communities becoming one with the
>dragons, departing from the mundane plane.
I very strongly doubt this. The EWF collapsed by a Dragonewt Betrayal in 1042 ST and the survivors were attacked by raiders over the next century to an extent that Kerofinela became depopulated.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #314
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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