Even More Independant Magic from Dane Johnson on 1996-01-17 (Glorantha Digest Vol 02)

From: Dane Johnson <dane_at_frame.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:26:52 -0800 (PST)

So Declares Argrath_at_aol.com:
>
> The cults for hire span a spectrum from highly establishment to
> illegality, making Sandy's thesis attractive. But there are two problems
> with Sandy's thesis: 1) you don't need a priest/wizard/shaman for every
> problem any more than you need a doctor for every headache or a lawyer every
> time your neighbor does you dirty; 2) people everywhere have independent
> magic, and sufficiently sophisticated peoples have always had independent
> magicians.

1 - Is the magic of an 'independant' magician qualitatively or quantitatively different than that of a priest/wizard/shaman? What about a minor alcolyte or an apprentice? In most medieval-type settings (and certainly in many Gloranthan settings) you are dealing with far smaller groups of people than you are in a modern environment. In a small town back in, say, the 1800s, even, you might have only HAD one doctor, and you really would go to him for minor headaches and whatnot.

2 - 'People Everywhere of Sufficient Sophistication' are not living in or on Glorantha with active gods and powerful, obvious magic. And are the Orlanthi more sophisticated than, say, the Eskimo? Do the Eskimo have independant magicians? (I don't know, myself, but for some reason I doubt it.)

If I can point this out without sounding too derogatory, I think that these points aren't so much a problem with Sandy's argument as they are the axioms you are making your argument on. As near as I can tell, you are arguing that there should be sources of magic in Gloranthan society which are not connected to the general local theistic culture and that these sources should occur in such number and in such a way that foreign sorcerers are not a sufficient explanation for them. The reason that these should exist is a combination of things, including a) that most human societies have independant magicians and b) there would be a demand for such magic workers in the various Gloranthan societies.

Several people, Sandy among them, have argued that no such magicians would exist because any such demands are actually met internally by the existing theistic cultures. If no demand exists, then whether or not such magicians have existed in Real World(tm) cultures is not really germane.

Your primary problem with this point seems to be a restatement of the fact that most (or all) human cultures have had such workers of magic and that for this to be the case there must be some inherent demand for them. This seems, to me, to be ignoring the point that people are arguing: that this demand is real, but is being met by the existing cultures, perhaps in ways that Real World examples don't.

<Shrug>

Of course, my Gloranthan Lore skill is low, so I could be wrong. And, of course, I could also be misinterpreting your point of view.

Dane