It seems to me that I am alone here against a huge horde of Lunar fanatics. Well, I will still try to fight to liberate them from the deceptions their illlusion-weaving _Red-moon_ goddess has weaved before their eyes.
I must make excuses in advance, because if some responses were very civil, some of them were downright incivil (read insulting). So I will try not to respond in kind, but...
I know this is a subject that sparks passion, but be careful, OK ? If you post something here and expect every body to fall to their knees and worship you and your responses, I don't think I will argue much longuer. It is a game, foremost, go read the "Great God Learner Secret", put your head in a cool bucket, and come back only then.
I will start by saying that I was genuinely impressed by the references collected by Nick D., and that they sparked a lot of neat ideas. Of course I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, and this is what I discuss below. The only sad thing is his tone, which I don't like much...
David Cake:
> The first and most outrageous theory is that Argrath, at the end of
>King of Sartar, is deliberately helping the Red Goddess when he tears the
>Red Moon from the sky.
Even from an Orlanthi point of view, this makes perfect sense, only not with the _Red_ Goddess, but with the _Moon_ Goddess:
This is not only an act of kindness toward somebody trapped by Chaos, but also the only way to "remove" the taint of chaos that the presence of the Red-Moon was imposing upon the Physical and Hero Planes. So I conclude that Argrath was truly helping the _Moon Goddess_ by tearing the _Red Moon_ from the sky.
Now, when I think about the Goddess, and the influence she could have had upon Argrath, I think that the Ambivalence of the Moon-Chaos Goddess may well have played a great part here.
Think about the exorcist, as an example: When you listen carfully, you can hear the pitiful small voice of the trapped Moon-Goddess saying: "Please help me, Chaos is devouring me, II never asked for this, I'm Trapped, please, plea...". And then, as the Red Moon turns, an enormous cruel and seductive voice takes over: "ease,... HA HA HA, come to me, my little tasty morcel, I will show you the power of Chaos, I will illuminate you and devour you and your world, and you will be happy, HA ! HA ! HA !".
I choose to view Argrath as the hero of the Exorcist, one who can ignore the evil and chaotic side, and hear the voice of the child. One who chooses to free her by destroying the demon rather than annihilating the whole of it. This is how Argrath surprises everybody when he tears down the Red Moon, because eh can hear the voice of the child when nobody else can.
> Nick already believes that there is enough evidence within KOS to
>conclude that the Lunars win. Greg believes that you could conclude that as
>well. A key part of this is the final frantic statement at the end of
>Argraths saga, about how the Moon is still there but now is invisible.
I agree with you that the _Moon Goddess_ wins, helped by Argrath, but the Red Moon is no more, and the Empire is only ashes. Saying that the Lunar wins is only fanatic propaganda.
You will also notice that nothing above contradicts the "invisible" statement. The Moon Goddess is now part of the God Plane, as bound there and powerless as the other gods, invisible to all.
Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe_at_student.canterbury.ac.nz>
> But then how do we fit in the White Orbiter (mentioned in the Zin Letters)
> and the fact that the Lunars have said the Moon is going to become White?
This is one of the great inconsistencies in the pro-lunar theory. Shouldn't they first agree about what the moon looks like: white or invisible ?
You will also notice that there is great controversy among the third age Lunars about the meaning of the white moon. If I remember correctly, some mean it as the symbol of eternal peace, that of the dead. It could be interpreted as the death of the Lunars themselves, as the "death" of their goddess.
Moreover, you can very well make end-of-the-world prophecies that become true. The fact that the Lunars prophecied that the Moon was to turn white is not necessarily a sign that:
Some Lunar philosophers may interpret it as a necessary change that will require a lot of bloodshed to happen. But that also means that their present state is unsatisfying (empire, red moon and all).
David Cake again:
> There are numerous good Lunar versions of the situation after the
> Red Moon, though. Perhaps most people simply do not have sufficient purity
> of vision. Or do not know where to look (perhaps the Moon has risen beyond
> the Sky?). Perhaps she is now complete enough to regain the Blue Moon powers
> of secrecy and invisibility. Or even better, as the Goddess now has as her
> personal domain not simply a chunk of rock floating above Peloria, but the
> entire universe, of course you can't see it, as you are inside. I'm sure
> they can talk their way out of a minor glitch like the Moon not being visible.
Yes, that's all they can do, try to _talk_ their way out of incoherence (;-).
Interesting position, eh ? (:-)
[Argrath and Sheng]
> Well, umm, yes. Not the brightest act in retrospect. But then again,
> things were very very grim when the quest was performed. Little point in
> bringing back Air powers to be defeated again. Is there anyone else who has
> managed to trash the Lunar Empire so sucessfully?
Truly, Argrath could not call upon Air Powers again. If you remember the above, it is interesting to note how great the power of the Red Moon was on the Physical and Hero Planes, being there in person instead of trapped on the God Plane like Orlanth (by his own choice during the Compromise). So Argrath decided to fight her with "terrestrial" weapons and resurrected Sheng.
In retrospect, even he thinks it was a mistake. You cannot fight destruction with destruction of a different kind. It is still destruction who wins, eventually. But he had the wisdom (and the strength) to admit he was wrong, correct his mistake, and eventually find a new solution to the Red Moon problem.
Because he could learn from his first mistake, he choose not to fight the Monster armies (destruction vs destruction again), but choose instead to dismember the red-moon, freeing the moon goddess in an act of compassion. Is this not the mark of a true hero ?
[Argrath Culpability]
> >Apropos of Argrath's cupability, I think he doesn't know what he's
> >doing.
> >
> I think he has some idea. But not as much as he thinks he does.
> Similar to the Seven Mothers, who thought they knew what they were
> doing, but got a real surprise.
Yes, I think the Seven Mothers were truly surprised by the result, and were consumed by the final transformation from red-moon to simply moon. They were mortals after all (born after time), and could not ascend to the God Plane like the Goddess did. Were they what was dismembered by the dragons, or did they suffer another terrible fate ?
Nick Brooke:
> It depends on what you understand the 'final frantic statement' to have been
> saying. Off the cuff, the explanation could be any of:
>
> 1) The Lunar Goddess is still there, although she is now invisible.
> The statement doesn't refer to the Moon, only the Goddess.
I would follow you here. The white moon exists as a physical body, but the goddess has now been restored to her place in the God Plane. She is therefore as invisible as the other gods
> 2) The 'point of balance' which held the physical Red Moon is still
> there (above the Crater), even though the Red Moon was knocked out
> of it (possibly turning into or replaced by the White Orbiter).
That could be true, but I would think that the white moon (if it exists) moves quite differently. For example, in a similar fashion as our Earth, if you see what I mean, though I have no proof.
> 3) The White Orbiter is *not* the White Moon, but despite this the Moon
> is "still there" in either of the above senses.
Why would anyone speak of a white moon that is not the white moon everybody sees ?
> 4) The authors of the Northern Colophon and the Zin Letters were both
> barking up the same, incorrect tree.
This means that the moon did not survive, does it ? (;-). And remember that when YOU cite them as references in the future...
> I'm only speculating about how it "could have been", hoping to show that a Lunar
> victory is not incompatible with the events described in King of Sartar. Once
> you recognise that the Lunar Way is separable from the Lunar Empire, this
> becomes a lot easier. This seems to me a better line of approach than writing an
> alternate history where the Lunar Empire overtly "wins" the Hero Wars.
What you are showing (and I agree with you here) is that a _Moon Goddess victory_ is not incompatible. Being freed from Entropy, Death and Chaos to be reborn in the God Plane is a great victory indeed. But she did not achieve this victory alone... She was helped by Argrath, and all her mundane work was undone.
Maybe you thought that my previous comment on the pleasure I had in reading your citations was sarcastic. I assure you it was not. But what I don't like (and you seem to agree here) is the statement that the _lunar Empire_ won. Your first statement was much too ambiguous: you should be careful when you speak about a Lunar victory, especially when you taunt Orlanthi in the way you did (see more about this later).
> Do you suppose Sheng's "Shadowmoon Empire" directed worship to the Red Moon in
> her Dark Phase, emphasising the "downside" of the Lunar Way for the profit of
> the rulers, while simultaneously wounding Yara Aranis, anathema to horse nomads
> (and associated with the Full Moon Phase via the Glowline)?
The idea has a certain appeal.
> > Apropos of Argrath's culpability, I think he doesn't know what he's
> > doing.
[Delete Delirium about the Lunar Goddess shaping Argrath]
Remember what you wrote here when you accuse me of Orlanthi propaganda. Not only does your text spell propaganda, but it is even written like some I've seen.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #363
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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