I tried posted this about four days ago, but it appears to have vanished. I'm trying again, and I apologize if it appears twice.
David Dunham and I have agreed that this will be my last public response to him on this topic, and that (since little 'ol me started it) he will have the closing word between us after that. We've taken up enough public bandwidth to explore our different positions and to share our views with the rest of you. (Besides, I hope to soon have audiotapes to transcribe.)
That said, on to my response!
David sez:
>Lankoring is the Knowing God. He not only Knows all the
>legal precedents, but he also Knows the past (which in
>Glorantha is how you predict the future), and can wisely
>give you a geas to prevent the bad parts from happening
>again.
I'm confused here. I'm familiar with Greg Stafford's "knowing the past allows you to see patterns which allows you prophecy what is likely to happen in the future" descriptions. But, since geases are VERY individualized things... well... just what are you saying here? Are you saying that Lankoring knows the past lives of all Orlanthi souls, and a Lankori (or whatever you call Lankoring's followers) divines a geas so that an individual won't relive a "bad part" and die again in the exact same way he or she did before in another life? Or do you mean that Lankoring knows the most likely way that a person born at a given time under given circumstances is going to die (because someone else died that way before), so that a Lankori divines a geas to try to prevent this? Or... what?
Me:
>>And since when is knowing your geas necessarily a good
>>thing?
David:
>Given that it lets you know how not to die, it's a good
>thing.
My point is that a geas DOESN"T "let you know how not to die." At best it tells you one thing to avoid doing to beat the odds of dying in one situation. And even that doesn't help much in some situations. Connor (the king of Uliad) used Fergus Mac Roi's geas ("never refuse a drink") against him so that two lovers (Noisi and Deirdre) under his protection would be left alone. This led to the death of the lovers, and to Fergus' exile. When Cuchulain sired a son on the warrior maiden Ayfa, he set the geases "never give your name," "never make way for a warrior," and "never refuse a fight" on his unborn son and then left. When the son (Connla) grew up, he went in search of his father. Of course when they met Connla did not identify himself to his father, would not make way for him, accepted his challenge to fight, and was killed. "Thanks alot, Dad!"
David also states that "we diverge" around the issue of Eurmal breaking (or "breaking" or whatever) the Cosmic Compact.
So, David, what do you think it means when Greg (at RQC2) says that "[Trickster]'s part of the Compromise is to break the rules" and that to go against this "he'd have to... act consistently, be selfless, care for others at all times, and do all the things that are in fact impossible to his nature." What do you think it means when Sandy says, "Eurmal and the other Trickster aspects are completely bound by the Compromise. The problem is that, for _them_ to properly fulfill their role under the Compromise, they have to break it. So breaking said Compromise, for them, _isn't_ breaking it, if you see what I mean?" What is Eurmal doing that looks like he is breaking the Compromise?
>Furthermore, the other types of geases (Humath's, which
>make you more like the god, and the kind you impose on
>another person) are kind of like laws, and seem to fit with
>Lankoring's Law rune.
Do you have Lankoring giving ALL geases, including the Humathi ones? I see those geases as being given by Humath's Sword, to help the initiates be more like Humath.
I'm not saying that Eurmali lay ALL geases in East Ralios. I think they divine birth geases, and do other forms of divination, but that any East Ralian of appropriate importance can lay a geas on another.
>And on the rune subject, geases are true, and Eurmal has
>the Illusion rune.
Again, I'm confused. Are you implying that the things that Eurmal creates _aren't_ true? My understanding is that the power of Eurmal is such that he can CHANGE REALITY. What he makes is as True as anything else in the world. It's just that he only gives mortals his powers (ie his spells) for a limited duration.
And, maybe the Illusion rune can appear to be whatever it is that Trickster wants/needs it to be for a given incarnation. Thus, he can have the runes of Disorder and Change in Dara Happa (Umatum), Disorder and Fertility in Dara Happa (Rankenveg), Disorder and Shadow in Dara Happa (Kazkurtum), Disorder and Death in Peloria (Rebellus Terminus), Illusion and Movement in Pent (Raven), Illusion and Earth in Pent (Hare), Illusion and Storm in Imther (Orlantio), Illusion and Change in Sartar (Eurmal), Illusion and Disorder in Safelster (Eurglenspeigle), Change and Fate in East Ralios (Eurmal), etc...
(I don't want to argue the specifics what rune who has, I'm just illustrating the idea that with Trickster, the runes vary. That said, I'll be happy to hear other views about what runes the various Tricksters have.)
Regarding the spell Wordwound, I think it is the rarest of several spells which Eurmali can use when insulting or satirizing someone. One spell would certainly do what David suggests and impact skills (though I'd probably have it affect DEX, making you more clumsy). Another would be one that affects APP, making the target uglier. But, with Wordwound, you can truely have a "deadly insult."
Well, I've undoubtedly rambled on too long. I'll now retire to my usually quiet lurking, and privately chat with David about this.
Peace,
Peter
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #379
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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