After the impressive lack of flaming that resulted from my Esrola Magna = Mater posting, I thought I give y'all something worth flaming. This is = a message that I sent Nick Brooke earlier this week. Enjoy. :> - ---------------
This is something of a clipped summary of the mythic languages between = Joerg, David, Pam and myself. I've simply pasted semi-cohesive = statements out of the 100K or so of messages to give you all an idea = what we've been yammering about. Where there has been disagreement I've = thrown in a little caveat in the selection. =20
Jeff: (in response to Joerg's comment's regarding my post on the = Digest): So you appreciated my little bit of semiotic babbling regarding = the "Lunar Victory KoS" thread. I didn't know if it was even going to = be comprehensible. I am convinced that the "self-referential language = game" method of analysing Gloranthan myth is far more useful than trying = to determine some sort of "objective" (would that mean = extra-Gloranthan?) Gloranthan myth-structure. =20
Of course as Wittgenstein demonstrated, deductive reasoning is an =
application of a language based tautology to given a set of empirical =
"facts" (which are of course linguistically constructed). For example, =
the classic syllogism "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore =
Socrates is mortal" is nothing more than a linguistically constructed =
tautology. For that matter, so is mathematics.
What does this have to do with Glorantha? Well, to start with, for us = to say that there is a knowable, underlying, objective truth to = Glorantha outside of any mythic-language game, we'd have to create a new = language game (call it the "GM mythic-language), which is a logical non = sequitur (since the GM mythic-language is just another mythic-language). = Secondly, proclaiming that GM mythic-language is a knowable "true" = mythic-language defeats MGF, because it eliminates much of the mystery = and ultimately much of the realism of Glorantha (it's lack of a single, = provable universal truth makes it very different from most game-worlds = and much like the real Earth). Mythic interpretation becomes an issue = of subjective ideology, subjective culture, subjective faith, rather = than some falsifiable scientific theory. [Note: not surprisingly, my semiotic construction of knowledge is not = exactly uncontraversial - even with the Seattle latte crowd. Joerg and = I are still arguing about whether there "necessarily needs to have been = a historical Spike" for Gloranthan myth (and the Heroplane) to refer a = Spike. I'll let you guess who is taking what position]
I tend to look at "Orlanthi" as a mythic-language group, sort of like =
the Romance Languages before mass media and high literacy tended to blur =
the dialects together. You've got several distinct families of =
"Orlanthi" mythic-languages - Heortling, Ralian, Vesmonstran, =
Henotheist, Aeolian, Wenelian, Esrolian, Brolian, Sylillian, Sairdite (a =
hybrid tongue of "Orlanthi", Dara Happan and Pelorian perhaps) and =
others. Within each of these, there are a number of dialects, some so =
pronounced that they are barely unintelligible. Still they share a =
grammatical structure and a commonality of certain symbols.
I for one have reevaluated my conceptions of the large, cultural =
Gloranthan cults and pantheons after the Orlanth-athon discussion [Note: = this was a conversation last year between Eric Rowe, Steve Martin, Joerg = Baumgartner, David Dunham, Harald Smith and myself],and as I result I've =been trying the mythic-language approach. Personally, I believe that = amongst most of the Orlanthi, mythic practices are largely learned, = practiced and taught at the blood-line or stead-grouping level. This = would explain the mythic diversity even within the clan. However, = withing the stead-grouping I suspect that there is much uniformity on = what consititutes the mythic language, even if there is still = disagreement on matters of nuance.
Joerg: This group is too small to invoke a wyter without explicit = magical efforts to produce and support one, IMO, but it shares a number = of quasi-religious spirits, to whom newborn (both human and lifestock) = are presented, etc.
Jeff: The parameters of the Over-Cult of Orlanth (which we should = probably try and define) allows other cultural heroes than Orlanth. Big = O may only be one of three ruling gods, he may be pushed aside to some = extent by a local cult and become almost like Dayzatar or Yelem. = Nonetheless, other Orlanthi will generally recognize these local = variants as Orlanthi - because they are within the parameters of the = Over-Cult. =20
This can and should result in an incredible degree of diversity from = clan to clan about the specifics of Orlanth (and by that I mean Orlanth, = Ernalda and the pantheon) worship. Obviously in many cases the tribal = kingdoms or clan kingdoms have managed to ameliorate this diversity to a = greater or lesser extent. For example, all Orlanth worship has been = affected by the great "cult-makers" like Heort and Harmast (and once = Lokamayadon). The lesser "cult-makers" like Alakoring have had a lesser = impact. But this degree of diversity makes it difficult for me as a = commentator to ever say "Orlanthi think X", except beyond a banal = generality and on those universals as per Heort and Harmast's cults. =20
The thousand plus Orlanthi clans in Genertela will result in there = being a thousand-plus cults of Orlanth, holding in common the general = outlines provided by Vingkot, Heort, Lokamayadon, and Harmast, but also = holding divergent elements as a result of tribal heroes like King = Colymar, regional heroes like Sartar, lesser "cult-makers" like =
Alakoring, the influences of other cultures like the God Learners or the = Pelorians, etc. Besides the very general outline provided by the = Over-Cult, individual clans may hold wildy divergent views. Some clans =may hold Elmal to be Orlanth's brother, some clans may have wildly = different stories about the slaying of the Emperor, some clans may = incorporate strange gods into the pantheon (like Darkness dieties), some = clans may hold that the Red Goddess is a Lightbringer hero, etc. =20
Beyond the general outline provided by the Over-Cult, there is no = uniform Orlanthi POV. The "Orlanthi" societies range is sophistication = from the wild Brolians to the highly sophisticated and sorcery-using = Hendriki, from Lunar-hating Volsaxi to the Lunar-embracing Sylilians. = Other "Orlanthi" subgroups have developed in directions which suggest = that they are not even contained within the loose parameters of the = Over-Cult.
This approach can lead to some interesting results. Right now I am = toying with the idea that when Hon-Eel gained the allegiance of the = Orlanthi of Sylilia and Saird, she introduced Red Goddess worship into = the ruling clan's worship ceremonies WITHOUT suppressing the Cult of = Orlanth and without forcing a neo-Dara Happan myth-language into the Red = Goddess cult. I believe this was done by "translating" Red Goddess = mysticism into the Orlanthi "myth-language" instead of the modern = (post-Sheng) Lunar approach of forcing a neo-Dara Happan translation of = the Orlanthi "myth-language" on the conquered tribes. =20
David Dunham: Since it is known that joint worship works better in = Glorantha, clans have a strong incentive not to let their worship of = Orlanth diverge too much from their neighbors, lest they become unable = to fully participate in Great Temple kinds of deals. For example, = Orlanth worship in Delela is probably defined by the Great Temple in = Kilwin (the religion of Delela is the religion of Kilwin, just as the = language of Japan is the language of Tokyo, despite variant dialects as = you get further away). Of course, there is no particular need for = different Great Temples (or use your preferred term for a Religious = Centre of Orlanth) to converge.
So it might be that while the greatest divergences in pantheon worship = are between clans (like who's the patron), the greatest differences in = Orlanth cult worship are between tribes.
Jeff: Amongst the Colymar, all of the clans hold some common worship = practices (through tribal ceremonies if nothing else). Still, even = within the Colymar, there is an incredible amount of mythic diversity, = and I suspect it even reaches to the relationship between the primary = gods (I strongly believe that the role of Orlanth and Elmal has subtle = differences when seen by the Enhyli as opposed to the Orlmath). =20
The Enhyli view Elmal, not Orlanth as their clan patron and protector. = Nonetheless, they view Orlanth the King as the patron of the tribe = (since they participate in the tribe ceremonies, which are no doubt the = Alakoring cult in practice). The Orlanthi framework is loose enough to = easily accomodate this sort of heterogeneity. In fact, those tribes = that have a Yelmalion clans, probably can generally accomodate them into = the tribal Orlanth Rex framework.
Joerg asked: Now to the really hard cases: 3rd Age Esrolia, the Isles, = and Caladraland. These are Theyalan in culture. Are they accepted into = the Orlanthi scheme?
Jeff:The BIG QUESTION. Allow me to give my thoughts:
The Isles: Not "Orlanthi". I think the Islanders are outside of the =
parameters of Over-Cult and are true foreigners. To be honest, I =
suspect that their native tongue is non-Theyalan.
[Note: Joerg and I are in disagreement on this one, although I will =
probably reverse this statement and agree with him]
Caladraland: Probably "Orlanthi". Yep, I think they are within the =
parameters. They know the Greeting, the probably have a legal system =
recognizable as being "Heort's Laws", and they acknowledge Orlanth and =
Ernalda. They just don't find the Big O to be terribly relevant. BTW, I =
do not believe that the "Lodril" of Caladraland is recognizable as the =
"Lodril" of Peloria, except by a God Learner. However, I'm willing to =
toy around with other options.
Third Age Esrolia: Definitely "Orlanthi". They know the Greeting, they =
follow Heort's Laws (at least many of them), they acknowledge Orlanth =
the Husband, they probably even keep the language of rings in their =
outlying marches. Hell, they acknowledge Lhankhor Mhy and Chalana =
Arroy! A Heortling might think that they are strange and even a little =
frightening, but they are not an example of Not-Us. I'm pretty definite =
on this one.
This scheme is deliberately broad and flexible, as is the Orlanth = Over-Cult itself.
Any comments?
Jeff Richard
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