> But when it comes down to it, ZZ is a god of Death, not the God of
>the Dead. Being God of the Dead is about ruling the Underworld, not at all
>about killing people (everyone dies in the end anyway, why bother hurrying
>it). I see the two roles as quite distinct, and I see ZZ and Monster Man
>both fitting clearly into the two different roles. ZZ seems almost entirely
>a surface world god, who kills people and sends them to the underworld.
>Monster Man seems almost entirely an Underworld God.
I think this distinction is quite pedantic. ZZ lives in a fortress in Hell and his worshippers claim they go there after they die to join his legions of Death. He does rule the underworld, it's just that ZZ is more prominent to his worshippers minds as a War God having been brought to the Surface when the Trolls arrived IMO. Look at Drospoly, Wacahaza or Gorgorma for other examples of Hell Dwelling Dieties that are found as War Gods (sometimes).
> To put it one way, I think ZZ Esrolian earth pantheon counterpart
>would be Maran Gor or Babeester Gor. But I think Monster Mans earth
>pantheon counterpart is Ty Kora Tek.
That's how they are now. But Maran Gor originally was a pleasant diety before she changed into a murderous one. I'm saying that ZZ underwent a change of focus from Underworld Diety to Uz War God which is a shift of a lesser magnitude.
David Dunham:
>Deshkorgos and Derdromus are both called Monster Man; I'm not convinced
>that all gods who have this title are necessarily the same, given how
>generic it is.
I really see the Monster Man Cults as one of those pre Lodril Earth cults who were forced into the Dark Places by the appearance of a Lodrilite Hero (with the beginning of volcanic activity in the area). I don't believe that they are all the same but that they performed similar practices in their regions having been part of the Old Genertelan Earth Religion that predated the coming of Lodril and other Sky Gods. The Three Eyes of Deshkorgos combined with the Three Eyes and other features of Zorak Zoran (non Troll) suggest to me that the position was one of a cthonic cave-dwelling shaman.
Over time, such cults have been fused over time into a common cult of Monster Man just like Perakosus, Blows from Within and Lotralas have all been subsumed into a Pelorian Lodril Cult. [Not by government sanction, but as the cultural horizons of the peasants spread beginning with the peace and prosperity of the Khordavu Dynasty, the amount of differences between the many forms of Lodril were reduced but have not vanished completely).
>Still, it does seem to be applied to bad gods who live
>underground. But I see no evidence that trolls are at all related --
>there's only one mention of digijelm living underground, and
>Zorak Zoran is referred to as the Cruel God, in distinction to Monster
>Man.
I don't think the Cruel God was Zorak Zoran, even though Modern Myth says he is anymore than I think Rebellus Terminus is Orlanth. And the Digijelm argument is slightly irrelevant as I said IMO that ZZ was from Esrolia.
Jeff Richard:
>Right now I am toying with the idea that when Hon-Eel gained the
>allegiance of the Orlanthi of Sylilia and Saird, she introduced
>Red Goddess worship into the ruling clan's worship ceremonies
>WITHOUT suppressing the Cult of Orlanth and without forcing a
>neo-Dara Happan myth-language into the Red Goddess cult. I believe
>this was done by "translating" Red Goddess mysticism into the Orlanthi
>"myth-language" instead of the modern (post-Sheng) Lunar approach of
>forcing a neo-Dara Happan translation of the Orlanthi "myth-language"
>on the conquered tribes.
I presume you mean Hwarin Dalthippa (Hon-eel is post Sheng) here.
I don't think Lunar Mysticism can be 'translated' into Orlanthi anymore than Illumination can be translated onto a piece of paper. If you are importing a new concept, you tend to import new jargon that goes along with it (frex, when alcohol was isolated during the 12th Century CE, the west generally applied the arabic name to the substance because the knowlege of distilling it had come from them rather than apply any number of decent names for booze they had).
The Storm Worshippers of Saird have myths of a peaceful era before the Emperor spoiled it and that was Hwarin appealed to IMO. The Lunars policy of trying to replace the worship of Orlanth with Molanni is an example of this. Of course it doesn't work in the Highlands because they know Molanni dimly as a traitor and have no direct contact with her. Thus they have to be crushed like the barbarian scum they are. [Lunar Blinkers on].
>The Isles: Not "Orlanthi". I think the Islanders are outside of the
>parameters of Over-Cult and are true foreigners. To be honest, I
>suspect that their native tongue is non-Theyalan.
This is the Ygg's Isle, Three Steps and Ginorth folk? Or the Rightarm Islanders?
>Caladraland: Probably "Orlanthi". Yep, I think they are within the
>parameters. They know the Greeting, the probably have a legal system
>recognizable as being "Heort's Laws", and they acknowledge Orlanth and
>Ernalda. They just don't find the Big O to be terribly relevant. BTW, I
>do not believe that the "Lodril" of Caladraland is recognizable as the
>"Lodril" of Peloria, except by a God Learner. However, I'm willing to
>toy around with other options.
I don't think the Caladralanders qualify as Orlanthi. The clan laws have been modified by the God Learners under the guise of the Volcano Twins. They do speak a related language but this does not mean that their myth-language (paradigm is what I use) is the same as the Orlanthi anymore than the myth-language of the Muslim Indian is the same as that of the Hindu.
I do agree that the Esrolian Lodril Cult is markedly different to the Pelorian Lodril in rites.
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