> I'll concede that a separate smuggler cult may not to be everyone's taste...
> There are already in existence other minor cults which add colour to the
> game. Why not allow GM's another option?
GMs *always* have other options: any damn' options they want to take! The posters to this list can only inform and advise: what you do with our collective deliberations depends entirely on your own judgement. Hell: if you want to put exploding Ulerian were-hobbits or phaser-armed Klingons into Glorantha, how on earth could we stop you? :-)
The general reduction in the power of minor cults was, IMHO, one of the Big Improvements between RQ2 and RQ3, comparable to the general wipe-out of unnecessary Rune levels everywhere. The kitchen-sink cult writeup (typified by Lanbril, Yelorna and Caladra & Aurelion) is something I'm glad to be shot of.
The smuggler cult recently mentioned here (which I'll stress I haven't seen) seems from its description to have a handful of quirky, one-off Rune spells aiming towards a "Dr. Syn" style of game, with secret passages to avoid the Excise Men (in their tricorne hats), etc.
Now, within the RQ3 global parameters of Rune spell availability (per GoG), a minor spirit cult would usually have one or, at most, two special spells. Cults derive their power from mass worship: unless 100+ smugglers are getting together on a regular basis to worship their god, a large and well-organised Smuggler Cult is unlikely to develop. And if they are, it's unlikely to survive (for reasons which ought to be obvious!) :-)
Also, "smuggling" per se doesn't seem to have such a big mythic role. It's easy to see how, frex, Orlanthi or Krarshti or Issaries or Lanbril types might think their god's interests would be furthered by smuggling; less easy to see a 'subculture' of smugglers growing up and turning their religious devotion towards that end alone.
Now, if we were looking at a one-off local phenomenon, where (say) a renegade priest of Issaries has set up a local sub-cult (or hero cult {or spirit cult [or heresy!]}) in his coastal home village, with one weird runespell and a bunch of local features -- which needn't even be all that "magical": there's no reason for hidden doors and secret passages to be created or concealed by magic! -- then I'd have no problem.
We're looking here at something around the size of the Pavic cults of Lanbril or Black Fang: the cult's following is strictly local, though its worshippers may allege they're part of a World-Wide Secret Conspiracy (inherently unproveable), and its "doctrines" depend far more on the personal desires of the shaman, priest or sorcerer leading the worship ceremonies than on the desires, aims and ideals of the god, hero or spirit who attracts that worship. But the activities of one village, or one ship's crew, scarcely merit a full cult writeup: they're scenario material, pure and simple!
> Chaos - as far as I can tell - isn't universally held as the ultimate
> evil. In the lunar empire, for example, broos are allowed to exist (I
> believe), so there's a certain tacit acceptance of chaos. But even for
> lunars illumination is a radical departure. Why is this?
Because Illumination is a profound, mystical experience, which can't easily be explained to the non-Illuminated. It grants a peculiar perception of the Universe, which must be undergone to be understood. As I (and others) have been saying here recently, Illumination is likely a less radical departure from the Lunar mindset than from others', less likely to cause insanity. But your question is more akin to, "Saint Teresa had ecstatic visions, and she was a Christian: why are Christians surprised when they have ecstatic visions?" -- a bit of a non sequitur.
For your reference, the Lunars are practically unique in contemporary Glorantha in preaching tolerance, acceptance or inclusion of Chaos within the world. They aren't just a "for example", they're an all-but-unique exception to the general Gloranthan rule.
Yes, broos can be full citizens of the Lunar Empire, but if they start killing and raping and spreading disease, they are (of course) dealt with severely. There are rumours of a city called "Brootopia" somewhere in the Empire, but as their originator I'd advise you not to take these too seriously. And *everyone* knows that you can meet well-dressed, perfumed, polite broos with neatly-combed goatee beards and little round glasses, working dutifully within the Lunar bureaucracy... :-)
> My friend proposes that illumination is the process of understanding the
> "true" nature of gods, etc. Specifically, of realizing that the gods/
> spirits/etc are limited in what they can know, how they can behave, etc.
But this is Gloranthan orthodoxy! Everyone knows that the gods are limited. Only the Invisible God claims omnipotence/omnipresence/omniscience, and his worshippers agree that these qualities are hardly ever crudely manifest in the world.
> This seems to neatly explain a lot of aspects of the big I. The gods are
> limited, so they can't provide meaning, so ultimately there is no Truth,
> just a lot of limited truths, with no ultimate guidance - a terrible
> realization for any fanatic, which basically any gloranthan qualifies as.
This, too, is Gloranthan orthodoxy: cf. Wyrms Footprints for the mythical origins of the multiplicity of Truth. And I'd fervently deny that "basically any Gloranthan" is a fanatic: that would be completely absurd!
> Conversely the gods are limited, and only need to be appeased in limited
> ways; one can simultaneously worship multiple gods, provided that one
> properly acts the role of the worshipper for each.
Yes, this is true, but isn't an Illuminated insight: it's the way any polytheistic religion has to work. We Greydogs don't behave the same way at the weapontake as we do at weddings (cf. below, for Carmanians who do :-)!
In general, I don't think it's sensible to attempt to define the undefinable, or reduce the philosophical and mystical experience of Illumination to a mundane list of "realisations" that can be written down on the back of a postcard.
In specific, I think your friend's approach is barking up the wrong tree altogether. Illumination is a transcendent mystical experience which grants those who undergo it (willy nilly) a wholly new and undeniable perspective on the world. Your friend's explanation sounds more like God Learning: reducing the ineffable divine mysteries of Glorantha to their mundane quantities and mechanisms and pro-forma formulae.
___
Pam writes:
> I gather that Carmanian weddings are a bit like the "Lancealot" scene
> in Monty Python's Holy Grail - kill the family and take the bride...
That's one (amusing) way of describing it...
I think it was Paul Reilly or Loren Miller who initially proposed marriage-by-abduction (cf. mediaeval France for examples, esp. those collected in Georges Duby's "The Knight, the Lady and the Priest) as a Carmanian model, now ritualised in most cases (part of the wedding procession has the groom racing his in-laws from their castle back to his own, with his bride slung across the saddle), but commemorating an earlier situation where genuine abduction of unwilling brides was accepted as the norm.
This may tie in with the Rape of the Pelandan Women, one of the atrocities of Shah Surandar committed way back at the beginnings of the Carmanian Empire.
Killing the in-laws is strictly optional, and generally frowned upon: it probably has nothing to do with the wedding! :-)
> The caveat on this whole idea whereby the God's knowledge is greater
> than some people like, is that the Gods do not trust their worshippers
> (a given in most things about Glorantha I've read)...
That sounds *very* strange to me! The gods constantly guide their worshippers through omens and portents, divinations and chastisements. Why do we need to give them access to a vast additional body of information and then state that they never use, or permit anyone to make use of, this resource?
> After all, I can't see L.Mhy/I.Ontor et al not having a large knowledge-
> base, and always wanting more.
These two are practically unique in being Knowledge Gods: I'd certainly not want to generalise from a single instance. Maybe it's true that anything ceremonially written down and stored in a LhM temple library is "known" to Lhankor Mhy: but how is this different from conscious prayer and communication with the deity? Robert's model would say LhM is aware of *everything* that's ever been written (perhaps in certain [undefined] scripts or languages only), and also unwilling to utilise or communicate this knowledge to his devoted and loyal worshippers (so why bother giving him this unprecedented awareness in the first place?).
Is Flamal aware of the fate of every blade of grass? I'd say, No.
Is Uleria aware of every fond feeling, or act of love? I'd say no.
Does Humakt know what every sword in the world is being used for? No.
So why should Lhankor Mhy know everything that's written in every book in the world, Issaries everything that's spoken in every language of the world, or Orlanth what's said by every barbarian in the world?
This micro-focus on language as the main means of imparting knowledge (inadvertently) to the gods *really* doesn't feel right to me.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #446
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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