Martin wrote, in his first post on this topic:
>(1). Irregardless of anything else, women are statistically weaker
>than men.
Hmm; I suppose this might be generally true if you played with a different set of characteristic rolls for women and men; as someone that does not, however, I'm not going to find that a very effective argument, I'm afraid.
More recently:
>Esrolia is a farming nation and appears to have very little military
tradition among its
>men and the amount it can have among its women would be limited. I would
argue
>that Esrolia has survived not through the warrior traditions of its women
but via the
>large economy it posesses, allowing it the abundant purchase of troops from
the
>surrounding warrior cultures.
Something that seems to have been missing from the discussion so far is the role played by Ernalda/Esrola's various husband gods (though I prefer the term "consort", and will probably continue to use that term). While the primary male god appears, AFAIK, to be Barntar the Plowman, the most common listings for consort cults usually list Orlanth, Yelm, and Argan Argar (and I assume, or at least suspect, that it was the widespread worship of Argan Argar and the Only Old One, with AA's connection to the spear-wielding trollkin militias, which prompted Peter's take on the Esrolian military). The cults of Orlanth and Yelm clearly qualify as male cults with a "warrior tradition", unless I've been missing something all these years, and I can't help but think that absent a more widespread military cult that at a minimum the Esrolians would use their Wind Lord and Sun Lord consorts in similar fashion to some medieval traditions -- i.e, putting them amongst the "foot" to steady the ranks.
Further, the notion that there is no "military tradition" in Esrolia seems largely the result of their unaggressive foreign policy, the fact that for mysterious reasons they tend not to invade their neighbors' lands. The fact that Esrolia is a "farmer nation" doesn't in and of itself preclude a strong military tradition; indeed, having read my fill of Victor Hanson, I'd be more than willing to argue that Esrolia is one of the few places in Glorantha where a farmer-hoplite tradition could take hold (the other two places being Peloria, which has already been provided with its Granite Phalanx cult, et al., and maybe the Safelster city-states, though with more of an Italian Renaissance feel). If the Yelmalions can field a disciplined hoplite army, there's no reason the Esrolians can't also. I have to admit to having read with some confusion recent posts on the "farmer-warriors" of Orlanthi tradition, and the idea that this would create huscarls as "close order infantry", as Martin suggests. Orlanthi "military" tradition would seem to be based on the cattle raid, the fast strike and retreat, rather than a notion of commited battle between disciplined troops. The Ditali and Solanthi raiders of Graymane seem typical; despite their successes (including the Lion King's Feast, and if anyone has more info on that Esrolian military disaster, please post it or let me know about the sources on that one), their primary interest is in loot and booty, not in confronting the Esrolian military on the field -- evidence of the "military tradition" of the Esrolians?
In fact, I would be more than willing to suggest that in addition to Orlanth and Yelm, there is plenty of room in Esrolian cosmology for any number of war-like consort cults: Elmal and Zorak Zoran, wyter-like regiment cults, heroic sons of dead Genert, consort-sons of Esrola or Ernalda, ancestor cults surrounding warlike Queens, etc. I sort of assume that the Esrolians practice both polyandry and group marriage, so it would be perfectly possible for a single Queen or household head to have several consorts -- one a Barntar devotee, and others devoted to "defender" gods, giving them personal access to a much wider variety of military personnel. That Babeester Gor priestesses may provide some sort of High Command seems a given to most, and that certainly makes for a plausible explanation of their non-aggression (the Babeester Gor priestesses, bound as they are within cult restrictions to be defenders and avengers, only sign off on _defensive_ or _punitive_ military actions), but I suppose that need not be the case, though I can't think of an alternative off the top of my head (actually, I suppose I can -- I've always been a little dissappointed by the lack of a Medusa parallel in Glorantha, so I'll throw out the suggestion of a half-snake, snake-haired, axe and torch-wielding daughter of Esrola/Ernalda and either Argan Argar/the Only Old One or Zorak Zoran as the focal point of a women's warrior cult in Esrolia).
And while Esrolia is wealthy, it is their wealth that makes them the target of the very neighbors from whom they would be hiring mercenaries. I would suspect that if they can help it, they're not going to be hiring someone today who will be raiding them tomorrow, at least not as a consistent military policy.
>Let us remember that the Sartarites were only conquered by a macho male
Lunar
>army outnumbering them substantially only after the severest trouble. Just
being more
>milltarily minded and having a large population does not mean you are
actually going
>to win.
As Ian noted, that "macho male" army (and given the role of folks like Jareel and the Sister's Army, and cults like Yara Aranis, I'm not entirely sure how "macho" or "male" that army really is) got its ass kicked at the Building Wall Battle. Indeed, the very fact that the Wall was being Built could be used to glean insights into Esrolian military culture: a heavy emphasis on fortifications (using forts to break up the smooth space of farmland to counter raiding parties, as Ian suggested), the ability to organize large numbers of people and considerable wealth for military projects (further supported by the existence of a Holy Country fleet; navies are amongst the most expensive and draining military projects for a nation to undertake -- and as a sidenote, I suspect their defeat at the hands of the Wolf Pirates has more to do with Harrek The Ultimately Undefeatable than anything else), and a garrison tradition at minimum (you don't build a Big Wall unless you've got the standing troops to man it -- no pun intended).
Further, the Lunar Empire's furthest gains in Esrolia came as a result of internal defection -- the decision by the Red Earth Alliance to use the Lunar _religion_ as a power source in Esrolian internal politics, thus opening a door that the Empire could not force by itself.
Under normal circumstances, I would suspect that internal Esrolian squabbles, while at the direction of the various Queens, would be handled by predominantly (but not entirely) male armies composed of _well-trained_ hoplite-style militias, raised from the Queen's estates and subject cities, and core groups of more specialized consort cultists; I suppose, though, that there is nothing to say that Babeester or Maran Gor warriors would not participate in such on their own time, as it were. Against invaders, these various individual forces would be welded together by the Babeester and Maran Gor priestesses, and backed by the very best of the Queen's Guards and one of the most impressive arrays of priestly magic in all Glorantha.
Just some thoughts; Your Glorantha May Vary, and probably does. Sorry about
the length of this post. Later,
Mark
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #491
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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