Ah, I see, your using the old "if I can't win an argument with Empirical evidence, I'll just make it up, he won't notice.'" tactic. Where do you get this from and how, given Esrolias central location and long history did they:
I'm sorry, I thought you were living in the real world "confused".
> Peter said
> >Just because the best troops in Esrolia are female is not the same
> >as saying that they are the equal of or better than male troops. The
> >reason Esrolia has survived unto the present day is that they outnumber
> >whatever enemy that can be sent against them. Esrolia has a population
> >of 1.8 million whereas its potential enemies number little more than
> >half a million. And some of those nations have been allied to Esrolia
> >most of the time since the Dawn.
>> I would argue that Esrolia has survived not through the
>> warrior traditions of its women but via the large economy it posesses,
allowing
>> it the abundant purchase of troops from the surrounding warrior cultures.
>Evidence ? If this did happen, then surely the Sartarite Orlanthi would
>have mentioned "Raggles Guddson, who went off to Esrolia to sell his
>sword as dearly as he could" somewhere in their intermable clan histories.
You'll note I did not say it was so, merely that "I would argue" it to be so. I was hoping the issue could be raised for discussion, which it has, I was not presenting it as a fact. I haven't got access to all these clan histories you mention, could you perhaps post me the source of them so I could aquire them?
>Secondly, I would argue that the existance of Maran Gor and Babeester
>Gor, as the "violent aspects" of the Earth indicates that the warrior
>tradition is quite alive and well in Esrolia.
To a degree but they cannot be a large percentage or Esrolias character would be very different indeed.
>> Er...How? Even if the women were more masculine minded and marched on
>>other
>> nations the chances of them winning are low. Let us remember that the
>> Sartarites were only conquered by a macho male Lunar army outnumbering >>them
>> substantially only after the severest trouble. Just being more milltarily
>> minded and having a large population does not mean you are actually going to
>> win.
>An army, incidently, that got is ass kicked in Esrolia.
By the whole Holy Country army and the Pharaoh and the Building Wall itself. Plainly the Esolians are not that tough given the nightmare time they've had agains the vastly outnumbered Ditali.
>> If, as a matriarchal society you get involved in a long
>> war (like the peloponesian war frex) the last thing you want to do is have
the
>> front line formations made up of the fit, healthy young women who would
usually
>> be giving birth to the next generation. Of course in a long war there would
be
>> massive casualties among this particular group and the result was that you
>>would
>> see a rapid drop in numbers and a certain long term defeat by a foe
protective
>> of their human resources. (like the Trolls).
>Simple. Dont get involved in long wars.
Tell the Greeks and the Spartans that, tell all of Germany that in the Thirty years war or Britain and France in the Hundred years war or Napoleon 1797-1815 or the whole world in WW1 & 2. Nobody does it deliberately you know. Your impying there is some kind of choice in the matter. Well there is and the Esolians have taken it: They give up and rely on the fact that they are more valuable alive than dead and run the country better than anyone else could anyway.
>Develop a cultural tradition of
>an expendable warrior caste of non-breeders, with firm traditions of
>leaving non-combatants alone. Fight it out with lots of talking,
>politicing, negotiating and sudden bursts of extreme violence. Of course,
>if it is outside the Family, everybody closes ranks and starts practicing
>their Earthquake spells.
This is all very well, but whats you're _enemy_ doing. Sitting with his thumb up his ass apparently.
> >Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with women warriors but any
> >country whose regular forces were entirely made up of women and who
> >were surrounded by male warrior cultures wouldn't last ten minutes.
>I disagree. Once the first few warbands were caught in the Earthquake
>spells, and the survivors noticed that a concequence of raiding the
>Esrolians was that your clan stopped having children, they would learn to
>make up reasons to leave them alone.
So the Ditali have stopped having children? Presumably their own Ernalda and Chalana Arroy priestesses are Esrolian 5th columnists and could in no way counter such an attack on the tribe. As for Earthquake spells, what a brilliant tactic! Lets just let rip an earthquake under those bastards eh? Who just happen to be besieging _your_ city in _your country. Added to that, they rarely have permanent dwellings of their own to attack and suddenly the dreaded earthquake doesn't seem so all conquering after all.
>And of course, swords and shields go badly against big heavy axes.
>Particularily against closely packed formations - the Orlanthi way of war
>is built for the hills, valleys and forests, not open clear terrain.
Where on earth are you getting this from? If this was such a truism, why were axes not the predominant weapon in the dark ages when in fact it was the spear, sword and shield?
>Hmmm, four out of the four empires listed above relied on magical power
>rather than military grunt. Hmmm, maybe there is a theme forming here
>about forging an empire in Glorantha ...
I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, but don't forget the Kingdom of War.
> >For starters look up human wave tactics in the first world war. The
> >infantrymen there held their officiers in worse disregard than being
> >'snotty bitches' but still went over the top. Also look at peasant
> >armies fielded by feudal lords during the middle ages. They didn't
> >side with the enemy, did they?
>
> Different. You went over the top for your regiment, for King and Country or
> Kaiser and Empire or whatever. Most of the officers were slauightered, it was
> only the staff who stayed back. What you are suggesting would be like all
the
> officers in a regiment sitting in the trenches while all the men went over the
> top telling them "you take the trench lads, we'll be along when you're done" I
> think a mutiny would have happened in no time. Officers lead and if that
means
> getting shot, so be it, they don't stand behind their men to stay out the way.
> If the Esrolian military did this they'd have a revolt..
>Nope. Look at it this way ... the Blokes are the grunts. The Babeester
>Gor are the Old Guard, the Reserve, the Exploitation forces. We will win
>the battle, but we need them to turn it into a triumph.
But grunts have to have pride and tradition and a belief in what they are doing. To create that takes discipline, indoctrination and time, allied with bonding through hardship. Any males trained to such a degree in Esrolia would have pride in themselves and be quite likely to get pissed off at "Old Guard" units, especially those dominated by Babeester Gor worshippers.
> >Secondly, cavalry is not common amongst Esrolia's enemies, which is
> >fortunate for them because it's a serious military weakness of the
> >Esrolians. If the men were to hold a line of cavalry, they would
> >drop spears and run. The Grazers number only 40,000 tops and would
> >simply be knackered by sheer numbers if they tried to conquer Esrolia.
>
>> And how would they be caught? By the non-existant Esrolian cavalry? They
>>would
>> have to have some or else they'd be slaughtered. I'm sure the Grazers could
>> gather more warriors in one place than the Esrolians could in a short period
of
>> time and get them where they wanted faster and more efficiently. Why do you
>> think they are so damn dangerous?
>Ummm, I can think of a number of ways to deal with them. Most of them
>deal with using Earthquake spells to panic the remount herds of the
>Grazelanders while sudden ambushes of Mobility-assisted Babeester Gor
>deal with their field troops.
This would be at best a stop gap measure, requiring the perfect timing that is so often lacking in any military attempt to impliment a plan. Sheesh, I don't want to mess with the Babe Gor girls in your games, sounds like they wear powered armour!
>Everybody else goes behind the earth forts. I'd like to see a bunch of
>Grazelanders on ponies cart a siege train around with them ...
I think David Dunham described such a scene rather well, check out his section on it on his web page.
> >The Caladralanders, Shadow Plateau Uz and Wenelian Barbarians don't
> >have significant amounts of cavalry and are loosely disorganized to
> >boot. The Heortlings do have some cavalry to pose a serious threat
> >(under King Richard) but the geography limits the potential forces
> >that can be brought to bear.
>
>> Fair enough, its not great cavalry country but a civilised nation doesn't
need
>> to have a nomadic tradition to raise cav. If it has the need it can bring in
>> the people to do it. If your enemies don't have cav and you do then you have
a
>> edge, the Esrolians have the money so why not get the edge?
>The Esrolians dont need cavalry. Earth forts and the powers of the land,
>together with the courage of the Many and the devotion of the Few will
>keep the Land safe.
Oh that! Just like the power of God saved Christendom from the Mongols? I'd forgotten, sorry.
> > >Thirdly, the men are used to charge the enemy rather than
hold > >formation. After the inital shock, either the enemy is trampled
> >in the mud, or the men are repulsed. If repulsed, they generally
> >'retire' rather than duke it out and get slaughtered.
>
>> !!!?? Holy shit, who are these guys, the Dirty Dozen? These "farmers" just
>> charge the enemy? And then retire in good order when repulsed? If they are
the
>> rabble you specify, they could no more do this than I could dance Swan Lake.
>> They would be ordered to charge and having no training, would mess up, they'd
>> arrive in lose order and be annihilated by a close order infantry like a
Huscarl
>> force, if they even closed past the missile barrage. As for retreating in
order
>> from a wedge attack, they'd likely break and be hacked apart by light Fyrd
men.
>Nope, they stay and guard the forts. Five, maybe six, feet of good solid
>Esrolian earth, raised by hoe, bucket and the occasional friendly Gnome.
>But Earth is friendly with Dark, and come the night Earthshaker will
>visit your camp, and the Wrath of the Earth will challenge you ...
So _you_ say that the women do all the fighting and the men guard the forts, whereas Peter Metcalfe said they absorb the enemies wave attacks, which you earlier agreed with and now contradict?
> >Then the female forces move in to knacker the enemy who has been tired by
> >the recent onslaught. Sometimes the female officiers among the
> >men can rally the 'retirees' to have a third go at the enemy.
>
> So the women don't wait behind the lines? Why would the enemy be tired, the
> usual effect of just routing your enemy off the field is jubilation and a
desire
> to crush the rest while the routed army usually sufferes considerable morale
> loss.
>Tut, tut, tut ... enthusiastically charging the routing first line will make
>you lose to a well discliplined reserve ... look at what happened to the
>French feudal forces time and time again.
But of course, this presumes the enemy are so stupid (unlike the brilliantly clever Esrolians) that they failed to maintain a reserve too. As the Esrolians have to commit theirs to prop up their army and contain the victorious attack of the enemy first wave, _they_ will be the last people to maintain a reserve and will most probably lose as a result (against a relatively competant foe of course).
>Heres how I see the Esrolian military: >
> >20% Female. Units of Babeester Gor, Vingans, Female Humakti Elites,
> >Light cav, Skirmishing archers mostly.
> >80% Male. Humakti mercs, Regular spear, heavy cav.
>There arent enough Humakti. Seriously, it is a minority cult even among
>Orlanthi. I doubt more than 2% of the total Sartarite population would
>follow Humakt.
But if 2% of the Heortland population and 0.5% of the Esolian population followed the Sword, you still have enough men to form or officer a fair few units wouldn't you say? And we do know that Esrolia has Humakti too as in ToRM and the famous lottery swords.
>I'd argue in an Esrolian context Babeester Gor makes about as much sense
>as Humakt for an Orlanthi.
Fair enough though I think Esrolia is very cosmopolitan given its central position and in particular, the melting pot that is Nochet, with huge trade happening all the time crossing Esrolia. Its diffiicult to be insular in such circumstances.
>Secondly, I'd argue that "the State" is a bad way of looking at Esrolia -
>it's a patchwork of bickering little Queendoms, none of which would be
>capable of speaking for "Esrolia".
Well yes, as would I but this defeats your own argument about the military efficiency and coordination of the Esrolians. I think KoS amply demonstrates the huge amount of factions in Esrolia and how many of them actually _did_ join the enemy.
Martin Laurie
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #492
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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