>On Yelm/Elmal, that may be the result of my
>own ignorance; not having the Source on that one, I was under the impression
>that Elmal was more of a _Yelmalio_ mask (or, more accurately, source
>god/cult), not a Yelm one (whom I thought associated in his masks as
>Kargazant, Shargash, Buserian, and Morzharzarm). If I have erred on that
>point, thanks for setting me straight.
Actually, my comment came from a prolonged discussion about the nature of the Orlanthi pantheon deities. My belief is that the identification of the inland Manirian sun god with the Dara Happan Imperial Sun was made long after this sun had become one of the many husbands of Ernaldesrola, whatever her name.
The Sun God originally wedding Esrola has been a bit of a puzzle since there is no native solar religion around. The Caladrilans were fire worshippers, but not really solar, the Praxian sun was relatively minor as well, and the solar Vingkotlings seem to have been mainly Winter Tribe, i.e. northern, Pelorian. The closest culture with a somewhat important sun god around were the Arstolan Mreli.
I cannot really say to which name, if any, this deity responded, but I am fairly convinved that their sun god was a victim of the Darkness and reappeared only after the Dawn. While he may have had some warrior aspects, I feel that Fruitbringer and Healer are somewhat more important to the aldryami.
Just to tease the anti-Tolkien faction: I wonder whether this aldryami sun may have been a radiant tree, a child of the First Tree (identified as Flamal). Cut down by trolls during the Lesser Darkness, it survived as a fruit or seed, and returned from this form at the Dawn. However, the pan-Theyalan religion developing in the area did obscure this part of his myth. The conquest of Maniria by Palangio the Iron Vrok imported another sun, Shargash, and melded the Solar Warrior onto these myths. The God Learners encountered the meld and identified it with their second hand reports on the Dara Happan Yelm (their best source possibly being the Pure Horse Tribe of Robcradle...). Whatever earlier name the deity may have possessed, his identity with other suns was proven over and over again. Still, certain special traits remained, which made this form of the sun god attractive to the Esrola priestesshood as a husband cult.
>Joerg also noted:
>>The Holy Country navy was sponsored and crewed mainly by the (Rightarm)
>>Isles, who received great revenues out of their trade fleet built since
>1581.
>As I mentioned somewhere within my last post, I assumed the Islands were
>heavily involved in the HC fleet; however, I would only want to point out
>that throughout RW history, being an island people has had little impact on
>whether or not someone can produce a standing fleet, as standing navies are
>more the product of centralized governments and organizational ability (think
>of some of the great naval powers of the ancient and medieval RW -- Greece,
>Spain, the Dutch, etc.
True. The central government in this case was the Pharaoh. The organisational ability was tossed in by the urban Kethaelans, the quite cosmopolitan mix of Theyalans with their guilds etc. The Isles were instrumental in providing the (navigation) crews for the fleet, not for outfitting them; this was the province of the urban shipwrights founded by one of Dormal's co-worker, a master artisan I remember mentioned somewhere by name.
As for sponsoring the fleet: in my view of Kethaela there are a lot of Islands folk around in the cities and lands upon the Mirrorsea Bay. If you look at the population numbers in the DW28 Dragons Past article, you'll find considerable percentages of these "Insular" people in Esrolia and Caladraland. I believe that they populate the stretch of coastal area below the white cliffs of Heortland as well, and have considerable influence in Karse, Sklar (the unnamed small city southwest of Jansholm, name courtesy of the HtWW1-team), Vizel and Leskos, making up some of the 15% "Other". These families are wide-spread and maintain good trade relations. One of these days I'll describe the background of my favourite PC from Karse, at or after German RQ Con...
>And on a potential hoplite parallel, Joerg wrote:
>>Rather Swiss-guard or Macedon style, IMO - rather lightly armoured, but with
>>long pikes, and long axes in the third and fourth rank.
>I guess I have no problem with that, since both the Swiss and Macedonian foot
>were both well trained and highly disciplined, which is the main point of my
>argument;
True. I'm more than willing to accept some standing army in Esrolia with good training and morale in the service of the Pharaoh. However, I fear that these units were part of the Lion King's Feast, and weren't really reformed afterwards when the Pharaoh had disappeared as well. Without their best soldiery, Esrolia was left with masses of untrained militiamen.
>I will agree to disagree about whether or not Esrolia's wealth
>would provide its foot soldiers with armor.
My point was that Esrolia's society doesn't favour a family's efforts to outfit a heavy footman as did the Spartan or Athenian, or the Old Norse society. A matriarch will surely find better use for the greater part family's meagre surplus than an armour encouraging her husband to do unproductive and potentially harmful things. Think of the cost of armour. Even if you have a lot of families with status comparable to Full Carl or lowly Thane, their priorities would be rather a stronghouse than a field armour. IMO, of course.
>As a minor point about militias
>in general, the term has no definitional meaning in terms of training per se,
One: this was a force called together from the local people of weapon-bearing age, not profession, and by this definition included a lot of little trained men in most areas where you didn't have masses of resident veterans.
Some militia was fairly veteran, or somewhat well trained, but I wouldn't want to wage a war with just the Sun County militia, which is comparably well drilled. The Sartar, Wintertop and Tarsh militia all included veterans from previous action and may have been a notch better than the peasant rabble to be found further inside the Empire or in peaceful central Esrolia.
Border Esrolia has a pretty tough militia, I daresay, but then I regard the North March of Esrolia as quite Heortling territory, with structures as the early Colymar clan, and uppity and somewhat hairy men. The Ditali border may sport some rougher militia as well - IMO Greymane's raids were so memorable because he avoided these on both ways and struck right into central Esrolia instead.
Central Esrolia will be as military minded as say Karasal Satrapy in the Lunar Empire - provide two units to the Pharaoh's army, and keep the rest of the populace busy in productive professions.
>"regular" forces
>(which in Esrolia I continue to think of as the Orlanth, Yelm, et al. consort
>cultists and the Babeester/Maran Gors);
I'm not sure there will be many pure consort cult units in Esrolia. I do expect Humakti centuries there, if anywhere in Genertela. There doesn't seem to be much demand for them elsewhere. I still feel the X Gor cults will provide irregular standing troops rather than regulars; in DP boardgame terms "Exotics". Some of the higher quality "militia" will be recruited from the caravan guards abundant in Esrolia (somehow the grain has to come to Nochet, and other valuables return in payment to the queens or matriarchs which will require some armed protection).
Sorry if this sounds similar to Greek mercenaries in Egypt, but remember that Greek mercenaries were quite common in Persia and in other Meditarranean regions as well. Esrolia does have some Egyptian traits, but I tend to treat these as flavours rather than main stew.
Andrew Joelson answered some questions. I agree mostly, but...
>> Why do the raiders (Dithali, Solanthi, Wolf pirates and Grazers) have
>> such an easy task in Esrolia?
> The Grazelanders were firm allies of the Pharaoh. Raids only
>started after the Pharoah disappeared...and didn't turn up again.
DW 28 tells us of Grazer raids in Esrolia already in 1603 and 1604, and FHQ#6, Single Matron Woman, was even killed in battle in Esrolia (though this may have been after 1616).
Given the frequent 180 degree turns of Grazer dynastic policy, I doubt the Pharaoh could ever rely on the Grazers. When they fought Lunar Tarsh for possession of the Sikithi Vale (the light pink area on the DP map), he may have supported that harrassment of the encroaching Empire, but otherwise there was no formal alliance. Nor would the agreement with Ironhoof have allowed such an alliance.
>2) The discussions here keep implying that the Esrolians have little/no
>cavalry, which makes it hard to catch Grazelanders.
At least they had no cavalry to match the Grazers. North Esrolia and the North March aren't bad horse country at all. The land isn't as densely settled as riverine Esrolia, and there are some common pastures between the villages. (Using RQ3's chapter on Civilization, I consider central Esrolia to be ideal territory with practically no pasture or commons between the fields, whereas border Esrolia will have the minimum commons and pasture in between, still densely settled compared to most other regions of Glorantha.)
>The Wolf Pirates are
>as bad or worse, since Harrek led them into battle and wiped out most/all
>of the Pharaoh's fleet.
Wrong. Harrek has the perfect alibi for this action - he was busy plundering Sog City at that time. Harrek "settled" at Threestep Isles only in 1620, I believe, and (for dramaturgical reasons) after the Lunar conquest of Heortland. Whoever the leader of the Wolf Pirates was who wiped out the Pharaonic navy in 1616, I suppose he was killed in the brief struggle for primacy after Harrek's arrival.
Mularik Ironeye seems to have been one of the secondary leaders of the pirates after 1620. I believe that he joined them in 1620 after having sold his dukedom to the Lunars and taking three years worth of iconoclasm and over-taxing with him from Jansholm, setting sail from Karse to take over the Threestep Isles as first captain himself. His ambition was thwarted by Harrek and his fresh Ygglings, but he saw opportunities in following Harrek, so he staid.
End of Glorantha Digest V2 #514
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