MOB:
>And y'know Martin, maybe someday he will (I got big things planned for
>Count Julan!) In the mean time, as a loyal servant of Appius Luxus,
>his mission takes him to the provinces where he strives to embody all
>the Lunar virtues, including honour. I don't think he sees this as a means
>of avoiding confronting issues at home (and even a cursory reading of
>"Strangers in Prax" would indicate the Julan is not into beating up handy
>barbarians for its own sake). Indeed, one of the Coders' principles is
>"encourage honest and effective government"; and I'm sure they do this
>wherever their work takes them.
Thats part of what I like about them. They are basically the nice side of the Empire an all the more refreshing for it. You presented them to say "Lunars can be the good guys too" and you did a great job, well written and convincing. Now _I_ am trying to go against the sterotyping of Humakt as a paladin god and you object most strongly. Julan is obeying orders inline with his concept of honour. Onslaught does this too, his honour is merely different.
Me:
>In the real world very few people, if given time to think about their
>potential loss would actually stand by you when the shit hit the
>fan. Why? Because most people are desperate to save their own
>lives/careers or comforts. Think about it. When have you been
>in trouble and been saved or supported by somebody when their kneck
>would be on the line for doing it? I can count such happenings on
>two fingers myself. on the other hand, I can count on all my fingers
>and toes the times when people didn't stand up for me or a friend and
>kept their cowardly mouth shut!
MOB
>I'm sorry for you. I think this passage goes a long way to explaining
>the sort of stories Martin writes and the characters he has empathy for.
You're a teacher right? I have several friends who are teachers and I envy them one part of their careers and that is the _lack_ of back biting and dishonourable conduct that they have in their jobs. I'm afraid the world of business isn't so kind, especially when you own your own. I learned the hard way to be careful (through court cases, industrial tribunals, libel cases, physical attacks etc) and beware the worst in people simply because I met so many people who screwed me and friends over. It happens, its a hard world. I'm not bitter about it really, its just the way the world is. You don't need to be sorry for me, in a way its a good thing to find out how unpleasant people can be. It makes you truly value the good things in life and the good people. The bitchiness I have encountered over the years has formed a belief in me that you should treat others, their opinions and views with respect. Not to use perjorative language, not to insult merely because you disagree but to consider everything and everybody as well as you can. By the tone of your replys to me it is clear you have no interest in this view. If there's anyone to feel sorry for in this whole sad slagging match, its you.
Kevin Rose:
> The basic problem with the Humakti is that there are no real limits as to
> what they can do. It's all cultural. A group of humakti can be bloody
> handed butchers who can't be told from ZZ without a score card, skilled
> duelists for money, or honorable disciplined warriors. Humakt doesn't
> care. The basic requirement is that they must be willing to kill and
> willing to die. As long as the senior Sword belives he is following
> humakt properly, it's OK.
Mike Cule:
>And this is where I disagree again. Humakt isn't just a token or an idea. He's
>a person with his own ideas about what is right and what is wrong. And he can
>take an active part in keeping his followers on the straight and narrow.
What are Humakts ideas on right and wrong really? Is it his Code you mean or is that code a construct of the religion? Could it not be compared to the contructs RW religions create to structure their faith?
>Furthermore, the Humakti aren't just isolated mass killers. They have a place
>in 'Barbarian Belt' society and are supported by the larger culture because
>they are useful. Either through internal honour or a rational self interest
>the saner Humakti will keep the rogues under control.
Yes, this is so. Your argument follows a familar path to me. You argue that Onslaught and his ilk would have no place in Glorantha because they are not honourable according to Humakt and the culture around them? I'm not so sure about this. Killers exist in every culture, modern, middle ages or ancient. They usually care little for convention nor do they care for enforced rules. Onslaught killed a thane and his men, but if I remember KoS correctly when the Lunars took over and during the 1613 rebellion many took the time to even their various scores, the Lunars used the divide and conquer theory. The amusing part for me was that Onslaughts hired killing was done by the Lunars to remove a troublesome but otherwise law abiding thane simply so they could put in someone _they_ liked! I think this went on a hell of a lot in Dragon Pass from 1602-1625.
Jim Chapin:
> If there can be Humakti sword broos in Dorastor, Onslaught can certainly
> exist.
Mike Cule:
>I think that you'll find that those fellows are Illuminated, which breaks all
>the rules.
There is some speculation that Humakt is himself illuminated. Perhaps others can comment on this more? After all the cult description very deliberaely to me seems to mention nothing about chaotics joinging whereas most others do.
Jim
> And if Storm Bulls and Zorak Zorani exist in Gloranthan society,
> then Onslaught can survive too.
Mike:
>Again, these cults are kept by the cultures that support them for a purpose.
>Although Uroxi and ZZers are uncomfortable to have around, you need them for
>the defense against the ultimate enemy, Chaos. And if members of either started
>killing indiscriminately then the larger society would be swift to jump on them
>from a great height.
I would agree with this but nobody is talking about indescriminate killing (well I'm not anyway) Such is the actions of chaos. Funny how that doesn't seem to get stamped out eh, nor does other dishonourable behaviour.
>And finally, I must say that Onslaught's stats make me boggle slightly. Bite
>attack at 160%? Move this guy onto the Godplane please......
Well I did write him to be on the verge of minor herodom so its good that you think his stats display this. I was worried that some folk would consider him normal PC material!!!
As I've said before, I like stats and make no apology for that. I'd never seen a write up of any human of great power before so I did it myself. Thats my take on it. If anyone else would post a set of stats for what _they_ consider a hero, I'd be really pleased. How about Argrath? How tough is he?
Martin Laurie
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