>They haven't thought of it or didn't do it. You may laugh but the
>Greeks invented the steam engine a long time ago and da Vinci thought
>up a lot of nifty ideas without ever putting any of them into use.
This is possible but I don't think your examples are convincing.
The greeks invented a steam toy, not a real engine. It was an aeleopile (spelling?). It used jets of steam from a heated container to spin the container. It was completely useless as a power source. They lacked the technological base to make anything better. They could not machine useful pistons or turbines to draw energy out of the steam pressure. Elementals will apply their force where they are told to, you don't need good machinings to make them do useful work.
Da Vinci was a genius who put an amazing number of inventions to work. We tend to only notice the ones that seem prophetic of modern days, the flying machine, the tank, the submarine. But there is a selection factor operating here. These seem prophetic of modern times because they could not be built in the Renaissance. There were no power systems available that could drive these machines, so they remained only prophetic visions of what would be done when the power systems were available. In Glorantha such power systems would be available in the form of elementals.
> They're too stupid to leave unattended.
A distinct possibility. I prefer to think that they are more likely to be
malevolent if left unattended rather than just stupid, it makes them more
frightening.
>Duration
If we assume that the elemental must leave its binding to do work, then duration
is very much a limiting factor. However, there seems to be some opinion that an
elemental can be made to work from inside its binding if the design is correct,
in the same way that a human can work in chains. If everyone would agree to your
interpretation that they must be released from the binding and controlled with
expensive magic then the problem would mostly go away.
- ---------------
Scott aka Delecti_at_aol.com
> It seems that this is really bugging Ian.
Yes, this is really bugging me. I like Glorantha because it is really bizarre, but also is mostly internally consistent and when it isn't consistent there is usually some decent baffle-gab to explain away the problem. The potential uses and abuses of elementals will ruin that consistency and I haven't seen a believable load of baffle-gab yet. :)
I don't have any quarrel with elementals being available to do heaps of work on special occasions. I just don't accept that Gloranthan cultures can exist as they do if elementals can be used too commonly or easily.
For examply, you suggest that various peoples might keep salamanders in their forges. I don't like this if you get something for nothing. Once the salamander is in there the forge burns forever. I think you still should have to shovel in coal whenever you want to heat it up enough to work metal. Otherwise the salamander will become small and weak and cool. He should not be able to work forever without any sustenance. You might still find the salamander useful because he can encourage faster and better combustion so the forge heats up faster. He can concentrate the heat to give a hotter fire than the forge would otherwise produce. Maybe there are other benefits. I still feel that you should have to work to control him while making him work.
As Pam Carlson suggests, you have to put something in to get anything out. - --------------
Pam Carlson:
Bad Man of Fire-Newts? I like the concept but the title needs work.:)
Thankyou. Your suggestions resonate well with my biases.
Using elementals is possible but it requires respect and sacrifice or there will be unpleasant repercussions.
>I dunno about sorcery and the west - maybe they can
>make limited use of elementals by insulating themselves
>from the spirit-sources.
Yes, the westerners may be a bit of a problem. I suspect they still have to be careful of the elemental forces, though. There are still lots of powerful spirits in that land, nymphs and others, who could be offended if the magic gets too abusive. I suppose we should hope that a western wizard tries to live up to the title of "wise one" which would include not abusing nature or any beings of nature. After all, the westerners don't deny the existance and power of the false gods and lesser spirits, they just deny the divinity of those beings.
The west would be a good place to send some batch of adventurers who have to release some poor abused elementals who have been enslaved by a powerful and irresponsible sorceror. It would be up to them to not only release the elementals but to also provide an object lesson about why it is unwise to enslave them.
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