Yup, after all, we are all God Learners and know, deep down, that Glorantha was created from the deranged ravings of a madman :-)
End of the Gods
Sorry, but not all the Gods died. "Argrath, the Spider Spirit and the other few which had survived " is the quote from KOS. These gods are presumably the ones who had the sense not to take the net to catch the devil "What, me take hold of that net and catch the Devil while you hide behind a rock with a sword? No way, matey."
> I'd also like to bring to everybody's attention pg269 of KoS in the "In
Closing" section where the author
> has concluded that the confrontation with the Devil probably happened
during Argarth's LBQ.
This conclusion is based on asumptions and probabilities and ignores several
facts.
Firstly, the Devil reappears evry 600 years. This would make 1800 or
therabouts the correct date, not 1677.
Secondly, Argrath and the Devil begins "Without the facade of the Red Goddess
and the Lunar Empire, the true nature of the enemy was revealed when Wakboth,
the God of the Ultimate End, came forth to rule humankind." This clearly
happened after 1725 when the Moon fell. If you assume that Wakboth and the
Chaos Hordes take several years to appear and become powerful, this would
support circa 1800, way after the LBQ.
Thirdly, the Gods were walking around when the Moon fell, so that would leave
the way open for Chaos to appear in force. I think that destroying the Moon
broke the Compromise, since the Red Goddess was part of the Compromise, and
let far worse things than the Lunar Empire in through the back door.
Fourthly, Argrath could not do the LBQ again to defeat the Devil, since he
had already done it.
I reckon that Argrath saw his chance to rid the world of all the meddlesome gods - both lawful and chaotic - and enlisted Arachne Solara's aid. After all, in the Assembly of the Gods, a "small spirit, almost insignificant" spoke up and convinced all the gods that this was the wayt to win - and they believed her! Clearly, Argrath and Arachne Solara were in cahoots here.
Sheng Seleris/Red Emperor
> In the Monster Empire, this council is replaced by evil and/or chaotic
beings to make a new "Black"
> Emperor.
There is no evidence, that I see, of Sheng Seleris being made up of a number of people, nor of him being different at the end of the war than at the start. I think that Sheng Seleris incarnated the powers of the Red Emperor's shadow and became the Shadow Emperor. After all, the Red Emperor was the legitimate Emperor of Dara Happa. After he was killed, the Shadow Moon Empire formed, with the Shadow Emperor at its head. When he was killed, the Moster Empire was formed with nobody in charge.
Yelmalio
> (the Heavens thunder as the Gods of Hot Air clash again).
Only this time, it is a new God of Hot Air clashing.
> If he was known to all elves, then why is he needed to be physically in
Prax to teach the Ostrich Riders
> when they could have easily gotten the worship of Yelmalio from the Elves
before the Forests of
> Prax were burnt?
He did not *need* to be in Prax. In fact, I do not think the Ostrich Riders originated in Prax, I think they came from Dara Happa and fled the floods, or left for another reason. They are certainly not a Praxian people as such.
Yelmalio was worshipped by the Ostrich Riders probably as a founder/leader as well as the Forest Sun. You can see Yelmalio leading his forces in defense of the Forests of Prax, riding majestically on the Ostrich, followed by the Faithful, only to be thwarted by the cowardice of his mount. (At least, I can).
Also, gods can be worshipped in different ways by different people - Lodril is worshipped as Volcano God in Caladraland, as Farmer in Pelanda (I believe), as god of Peasants in Dara Happa, as Grandfather amongst the Agimori and even as a line of hereditary rulers of some people I can't remember the name of and can't be bothered to look up. Or is Lodril another of your composite deities, made up of several little gods? (If so, why on earth would you combine a Volcano God with a peasant/farmer god and an Agimori Allfather?)
> And if he is the forest sun why does he need to be a physical person
instead of an aspect of the Sun
> himself?
Because he did. Why did the Sun appear as a person, or the Moon, or the Earth or the Dark Sky or the Oceans? You may as well ask why any of the gods did any of the things they did. At some point, most of them appeared to the people. They are protrayed as human, troll, elven or whatever but probably were not.
> aspect of the Sun himself?
This is the whole point of my argument. Yelmalio is not "an aspect of the Sun", he is The Forest Sun, or the Mountain Sun or whatever. We need to get away from the idea that Yelmalio is Yelm is Antirius is Sun Hawk is Kargzant is Lux is Aether is Lord Light. This a modern-day, earth-bound concept born of Comparative Mythology seeking to show that all gods are merely manifestations of elements of the human psyche. It has no relevance in a world such as Glorantha where the Gods walked the world, where Yelm is the father of a whole host of Sun Gods, where the gods have clearly devolved into more sophisticated, specialised forms of the same principle, but are nevertheless independant deities in their own right. The doctrine of Many Suns is suspect to say the least, no matter who first wrote it up. If you say that the Darra Happans thought of it in the war of many suns, then it is merely a convenient way of explaining why Yelm was the Emperor - all the other Suns were merely aspects of Yelm. If it was thought up by GS to confuse and irritate us, then fair enough. If it was introduced to show that all Sun Gods are the same, then no way.
> Why do you think it is Yelmalio who's the "big god"?
I don't. Yelmalio is merely one of the elephants - there are lots of elephants and, apparently, even more blind men.
> I don't think *anyone* worships the god that
Khelmal/Yelmalio/Elmal/Antirius/Hurril orignated from.
Who says that Antirius originated from Yelmalio? Not me for sure:
Khelmal/Yelamlio/Elmal are one and the same; Antirius is merely part of Yelm
- - one that he shed when he died - in the same way that Ourania is a part of
Dayzatar; I am not at all sure who Hurril is (failed my 100% Glorantha Lore
there, unfortunately).
Certainly, people worship the god that Yelmalio/Khelmal/Elmal derived from
because they derived from themselves - the god AKA Yelmalio.
> I think it turn into one of the Big Secrets of Glorantha as to who the Big
and Original God is
As far as I am concerned, Glorantha does not have a big and original god, except for the Invisible God/Creator and he doesn't count.
> So the reformers said. All reformers who introduce religious reforms into
a cult claim to be taking it
> back to the Old Pure Traditions.
> [That's an Orlanthi All BTW].
But that does not mean that it isn't so. Perhaps, for once, these are part of the 15%.
> But can an aspect become a minor god and so forth? Orlanth has replaced
Umath as the Great God of
> Storm and nobody worships Aether anymore.
Orlanth has not replaced Umath. Umath was God of All Storms. Now there is Urox, God of the Desert Storm, Ygg, God of the Ocean Storm, Valind, God of the Winter Storm, the Seven Winds, Humakt, Vadrus, Ragnaglar and so on. Each filled part of Umath's place, but none became Umath. The fact that Orlanth holds the Storm Rune is because Umath abdicated power when the Celstial Court was destroyed.
I would say that when a Hero becomes an Aspect of a god and progresses to being a minor god, as happens in the Lunar Pantheon, for instance, the main god merely sheds that aspect so that it is worshipped alone (eg Yelm and Saggitus, The Red Goddess and Hon-Eel).
> Arkat's cult is _bigger_ than the Yelmalio Cult described in Sun County and
so is that of the Red
> Emperor IMO.
Arkat's cult was great when he was around, but look at it now - a splintered
remnant, made up of people who do not even believe the same things as other
Arkati. This is hardly a cult.
The Red Emperor has a cult which is bigger than Yelmalio's, but once again,
he is still around. How big do you think his cult is after Sheng Seleris
makes Red Stew?
> Except of course deluded sages who write rubbish like 'making gods' in KoS.
;-)
Exactly - fuzzy thinking, mixing dates and people up. This was written by a man wanting to glorify Tarkalor - trying to find something, anything, to praise him.
Illumination
> This was stated way back in Cults of Terror.
For those poor souls who do not have a copy of this excellent tome, let me
illuminate you....
"Likewise, it frees creatures of chaos from their twisted convictions and
offers them the chance to rid themselves of the hate which riles their
lives."
By the way, I think that Arkat, when he became Zorak Arkat, Chaosbane, took the Zorak Zoran motto "Any tool in the fight against chaos" to heart and became a Krjalki himself to destroy Gbaji. (In fact, it says any stratagem, or dirty trick used against the primal enemy, chaos, is legitimate end encouraged" but that does not trip off the tongue very well).
[As an aside here, I have a player whose character is a mistress race troll whose wish is to cure the curse of kin. He aims to do this by becoming an avatar of Arkat, then choosing the powers of Chaos to become Gbaji, then choosing not to curse the trolls, thus weakening the curse by deliberately throwing a heroquest. The only thing he is afraid of is whether Nysalor gifted the trolls with trollkin in order for them to survive. If that was the case, then he would be forced to either a) not curse the trolls, break the curse and watch the trolls wither and die through slow breeding etc. or b) curse the trolls again and make it even worse. Of course, it may just be a cunning ploy to be able to become Dark Side without anyone complaining.] Whoops, is talking about players and characters and game aims suitable for the Gloranthan Digest? Maybe not, I don't know how it slipped in there
Heresy
>.>Glorantha is special precisely because the myths happened. The world is
made
>>up of the body of Ga, the Air is the bodies of Storm Gods, these things
>>actually happened. The gods are real in Glorantha because you can go and
meet
>>them.
>
> No, that is one of several conflicting world views in Glorantha.
True, the Brithini believe there were no gods, that everyone in Godtime was a
bad sorcerer who strayed from the paths. Of course, they are wrong.
I'm not sure what the Vadeli believe, but they are godless atheists as well
and so are wrong.
Malkioni generally believe that the way of Hrestol and Malkion is the only
true way and that anyone consorting with gods and spirits is on his way to a
worse place than Solace, but they recognise that the gods exist - even
Malkion was the son of two deities.
Even shamans from the most primitive culture believe that there are big
spirits (AKA gods) which did things a long time ago.
That world view is one of the players' making, not from Glorantha itself.
And Finally
Does anyone else believe that Light Sons playing the part of Dykene in the pageants in Balazar must dress up as a woman in direct contravention of their taboos, but are allowed to as long as they have a full and visible beard?
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