>We have here a diety that has been smashed to pieces. She has been
>remade by the Seven Mothers and seeks to find out her place in the
>World. As a result of her experiences, she becomes dissatisfied with
>her role and seeks the ultimate truth.
So far, I think we have general agreement. Dissatisfied is a fairly shallow description, but generally yes.
>She finds it and becomes one
>with the Transcendant World.
discovers the Big Secret - which is not the same as becoming one with the Transcendant World. She has knowledge and wisdom and insight, but I don't think her religion is as simple as
>She is not going to
>get any better because She already is Perfect.
which is just the same rubbish as the hated Yelm or Idovanus or half the rest of the deities in the world - and whats more is the message of conservatism in a nutshell. I don't think the Red Goddess is either the same as your average deity or conservative. She is about acceptance and transcendance of your condition, not about believing you are perfect in the first place. And not only is she not perfect, her heroes are not saints (Danfive and Jakaleel, for example), and she doesn't believe that her worshippers should behave perfectly (the Bat, for example).
>>I thought we were still argueing over what the historical (sky)
>>events were, not their meaning.
>
>But you are relying on *Lunar* sources as what to the Sky must
>have been like if their faith is materialistically true.
Actually, I'm relying largely on solar sources or God Learner ones, with the Lunar ones mainly as an aid to understanding. And you are relying on your interpretation of a single large bas-relief. Lets face it - neither of us can muster overwhelming evidence.
[your entirely Gods Wall based 'proofs']
>But then these are all based on
>'extremely literal interpretations' and can be safety ignored by
>the serious scholar.
well, we all know how literal minded and linear thinking those Lunars are... and given what we know about the world altering masquerade that is heroquesting already, it hardly seems likely that the nature of the gods can be treated in the same way as simply establishing linear history. Was the Moon Goddess Gerra? In some mythically meaningful way, she was. Was Gerra known before this point? A goddess of grief certainly was known and pictured on the Gods Wall, probably before the destruction of Mernita. Are these contradictory? To some people. (and no, don't take this argument too far - it applies to mythic truth, but does not apply to historical celestial observations)
(actually, the Lunar story of Gerra is completely different to the version in GRoY - in fact, Gerra is acknowledged as Lukarius's wife in the GRoY glossary but this is not even mentioned in the text. And, by your own 'proof' that the Lunars are wrong, the Solars are too... and none of the stories about her seem to justify her position on the Wall. So I guess I'll just assume that there is more stuff about her that we just don't know yet)
But regardless, the Dara Happans certainly seem awfully confused about what is happening with the various planets, particularly Lesilla/ Sedenya/ Veritherusa. I find very little to contradict the Lunar beliefs, and it seems as good a theory as any other at this point.
>>The Lunar moon story is definately true for the Red Moon - because
>>that is the heroquest path the Red Goddess was thinking of when she
>>made the moon.
>
>What Lunar Moon Story? Your one about the Red Moon becoming Blue etc?
>How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I guess it COULD be that the the Lunar myth cycle as we know it is a recent invention, different to the one that the Red Goddess herself believed. But I can't think of any evidence to suggest that that is the case at all. I certainly think the Lunar myth cycle is most likely largely as taught by the goddess herself in the zero wane (we know she was active in the discovery of her own myth during her life - note also that the Lunar myth cycle as we know it does not include any mention of the Red Emperor or other innovations made since her ascension). And she was certainly following some heroquest path to do with a Red Moon rising into the sky - got another candidate?
>>This reminds me how much we lack a compendium of (not primarily
>>Lunar) cults in the Lunar Empire.
>
>David Cake has a partial list at his web page.
I was really only attempting a little clarification of the regional cults, and concentrating only on GRoY era cults - perhaps I should put up an attempt at a modern guide to Pelorian religion? The short answer seems to be that the Peloria earth cults are really big (Lodril, Oria), and the various mother goddess (eg Surensliba, Biselenslib) and river cults (Yestendos, Oslira) are decently sized - and there are really not very many Yelm or initiates of the major Lunar cults at all. Of course, Orlanthi society has relatively small numbers of Lhankor Mhy or Orlanth Rex initiates as well, and they are still very important.
Now, as for Sedenya being equated with Tyram..... yeah, I agree with Peter. Its probably bollocks. Which doesn't mean some mad chaos creature, maybe even a mad Lunar chaos worshipper, might not have believed it - but then again, is there any good reason to believe them?
I'm tempted to equate Tyram with the Evil Star Vettebbe (worshipped by Son of Evil) if with anyone at all, but I realise my case is pretty weak - - it sounds alright if you actually believe Son of Evil was an evil guy worshipping an evil star, but it seems more likely he was just the last Kargzant Emperor, desperately fighting on the losing side (and then Vettebbe becomes a servant of Kargzant).
Mind you - a chaos heroquester who believed that Tyram was Sedenya might conceivable have some success.
And equating Tyram with Burbursta the Draconis Stella is even less likely. The Draconis Stella represents quite different powers, primarily other elemental ones (isn't Orlanth's Ring part of the Draconis Stella?).
The interesting thing about Tyram, actually, is that if you assume Tyram's assault on the sky's came at the same time as the other major chaos invasions i.e. during the Great Darkness, then Tyram can not be associated with ANY celestial body, as there where none visible. I have heard mention that the Great Darkness was actually a sort of perpetual twilight rather than an actual darkness - in which case the evil chaos-Fire of Tyram might have been what light there was in the sky. He was the monster who crawled into the sky when all the gods deserted it, a celestial counterpart to Kazkurtum on earth (Murharzarm is to Kazkurtum as Antirius is to Tyram?). Kargzant vanquishes him, then Shargash crushes him, then Antirius burns away the last traces and the sky is clean, and the true sun can return.
Of course, Tyram is probably also God Learner rubbish, but I am sure the God Learners could have done a better job than what is in BDR (by the sounds of it).
All Hail the Reaching Moon!
David
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #5
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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