time travel

From: Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe_at_student.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 01:03:43 +1200


Jim Chapin:

>The mere existence of someone from another time does not create a
>paradox in itself. For instance, in a dterminist universe like
>that of Poul Anderson's There Will Be Time, history already is
>the result of what you did in the past/future, and can't be changed!

I've no objection to people travelling _forward_ in time - to my mind, this is the same as being put in suspended animation and then being woken up. It is just that once they arrive, they can't go back IMO. My problem is that PC's (being descended from hirsute monkeys) will try and cock things up like travel back to 33AD and warn the Apostles that Judas is going to fink.

I do not like to invoke a shifting or multiworld Glorantha. Yet at the same time, I do not like to invoke Calvinistic Determinism and intervene heavyhandedly (ie nailing the PC's up as Moorcock did sounds a bit crass if done more than once). For a PC to go back in time and be prohibited from doing some things _implies_ that there's something special about his time (where they have free will) as opposed to the time he is in now (where they apparently). This sounds awful. IMO the past is dead and buried whereas the future is unmade.

OTOH *Apparent* Backward Time Travel, I've no obection to. Feynmann could treat RW positrons (anti-matter electrons) as electrons travelling back in time (it works - but it doesn't mean they are). Likewise, I view your OAE Explorer's explaination of Draconic behaviour as being based on a similar insight.                                             

Pam Carlson:


>I have always had the impression that Yelm worship is hereditary, and
>restricted to the nobility.

It is hereditary but it is _not_ restricted to the nobility. Only Yelm Imperator is restricted to the nobility and Yelm the Elder (Priests) are mostly nobles. Nowhere is it implied that only nobles join the cult. In fact according to the Genertela book (p33):

        'The Dara Happans often consider themselves the rulers and the 
        Pelorians the followers, pointing out that the _city_ _dwellers_ 
        worship Yelm, the ruling god, while the Pelorians worship Lodril, 
        Dendara, Eiritha, and other inferior dieties'.

The only requirement of exclusivity in the cult of Yelm is that to become a initiate of Yelm, your father must have been one. No mention is made about the father's social status. The only requirement is that to be Yelm Imperator, one must be a noble. A Sun Lord is not required to be a noble implying that a non-noble Yelm Worshipper is actually quite common. Given the ratio of urban commoners to nobles, it follows that most of Yelm's initiates are not noble.                                                                   

>This isn't extraordinarily difficult, because I see Yelmic
>families as prolific. After six generations of families full of 12
>surviving kids, there are going to be a lot of people wandering
>around eligible to join. But they will all still be members of only
>a few castes.

Castes? In Dara Happa? The social system described by Plentonius has long since changed. But more importantly, _if_ the Yelm Cult was originally restricted to the nobility (which I doubt) then there will be a surplus of people who cannot be supported by the economy in a dilletante lifestyle. Thus to keep living, they will have to get a job and thus migrate downwards into the lower social classes. Since the membership of Yelm is conferred by the fact that the father must have been one, we would see Yelm becoming an urban faith.

>All the Yelm offshoots- the Pentans, the Dara Happans, even the
>Grazers with Yu-kargzant - believe that to be initiated to the
>ruling cult, a person has to be descended from Yelm/Yukargzant.
>That means s/he has to be able to recite the lineage. This makes
>them believe they are semi-divine beings, with special rights and
>special obligations. Plentonius implies loads of this sort of thing.

Lineages are old hat and barbaric. All one has to do is for the Yelm Cult is to prove that one's father was one. To become eligible for Yelm Imperator, one also has to prove that he is within four generations of another Yelm Imperator who is technically Yelm.

>>I said that most of the urbans of Dara Happa were members of Yelm the
>>Youth at the least.

>I think _everybody_ in Yelmic cultures offers MP as "laymembers" on holy
>days, but few are initiated into the mysteries of the ruling deity. I
>see even "Yelm the Youth" as a cult for high caste boys and young men.

There are no such things as Lay Members in Dara Happa. It is after all a God Learner Term (KoS p246). Members of Yelm the Youth are initiates of Yelm just as much as Children of the Forest are initiates of Aldrya. Look at the requirements of an initiate for a City Diety, they are just as onerous as Yelm the Youth.

>Because there are limited positions in the Yelm cult, (there will be
>many more candidates for priests, Sunlords, and Imperaturs than any
>culture can a culture support), many of these will go on to other cults.
>They will become merchants, warriors, generals, landowners, or
>beurocrats.

But their kids will be eligible to join the cult of Yelm the Youth because their father was a member of the Yelm Cult. They are still Yelm initiates even if their main diety is somebody else like a Troll is a member of Kyger Litor even if he worships Zorak Zoran.

>>Read the Lunar Empire Writeup. It's explained the Dara Happans sneer
>>at anybody who is not from a city even _if_ he live in the valley and
>>can claim descent from the Sun God. This implies that even the peasants
>>can worship the Sun.

>Not to me. The term "Dara Happans" in print is often short for "urban
>Dara Happan noble". All the above statement means to me is that "urban
>nobles sneer at county nobles".

A minor correction, I was paraphrasing from memory at work. The actual passage reads 'City dwellers scorn anyone who lives outside city walls, even if they live in the valley and are descended from a solar god.' And I dispute "Dara Happans" being shorthand for "urban Dara Happan Noble". Because of the Urban focus of Dara Happan Society, there is no such thing as a country noble.

>>Look at Sun County - they've no problem with common farmers worshipping
>>Yelmalio.

>But not Yelm. Yelmalio is a sky god for the common man - an
>intercessionary between humans and the Almightly, Awesome Yelm. Lodril
>(a fallen sky god) fills this role in Dara Happa.

I really think we need to move away from the belief that Yelm is the One True Sun God and Yelmalio is the intercessor. IMO this belief is peculiar to Sun County because they are worshipping a 'Cold Sun' in the middle of a blazing desert. In Dragon Pass and Southern Peloria, they think Yelmalio *is* the Sun and don't have anything like the Son-of-the-Sun BS.

Lodril is not the intercessor between Yelm and Mankind. He is the Earth Father and is the major men's god of the peasantry.

>>Look at the Pentans, even the common rider is a initiate of Kargzant.

>Again, not Yelm. I expect Kargzant is seen as a son of Yelm. Among
>the Grazers, men worship various Yu-Kargzant sons at different stages
>of their lives, (Josad, Henrid, etc) but only the nobles worship Yu-K
>himself.

The Pentans do not _see_ Kargzant as the son of Yelm. Yelm is an evil god worshipped by the spineless soft city dwellers who fancy boys instead of horses. Kargzant is the Sun. As for the differing cults between commoners and nobles, the Pentan Noble is the equivalent of a Orlanthi Tribal King - he has been elected to the job. Sure, they would make a song and dance about descent from another chief but after the Nights of Horrors, the relationship can be very weak.

>> If Yelm worship was truly restricted in the manner that you suggest,
>>then it would have been superseded long ago by another solar cult with
>>a more liberal social entrance qualification over the 10,000+ years of
>>Dara Happan history.

>The Yelm cult is small, but influential because of all its associations.
>The _strength_ of the Yelm cult its ability to RULE.

But it can only _rule_ if it has sufficient people to make its presence felt. If the cult is small (1% of the population), then it runs the risk of being exterminated after a major setback. Given that Dara Happa has suffered Arkat, the Spolites, the EWF, the Dragonkill War, the Bull Shahs *and* Sheng Seleris, it would be a major miracle if the Yelmic nobility still managed to survive. But if the cult is worshipped by the army and the urban folk then it will be almost impossible to exterminate.

End of Glorantha Digest V3 #38


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