Trying to keep the Yelm debate sort-of short:
> 'The Dara Happans often consider themselves the rulers and the
Pelorians the followers, pointing out that the _city_ _dwellers_
worship Yelm, the ruling god, while the Pelorians worship
Lodril,
Dendara, Eiritha, and other inferior dieties'.
Sorry, but if the Genertela book implies than Yelm is only worshipped in the cities, I don't buy it. Yelm is a bigtime fertility deity. What's he gonna grow in the city - bricks? I prefer to extrapoplate from the rich detail of the latest 3 Pelorian sources (GRoy, FS, Entekosiad).
I 'spose you could interpret it that everyone and their dog in the cities is a Yelmie, but it doesn't go very well with what we've learned from the Pelorian sources. Even in the later parts of the FS, (1500 or so), the Yelmies who wanted the new emperor to undertake the ten tests all seemed to be from noble families. They then had to stake their own right to worship Yelm (ie, status), and that of their entire family on the outcome of the emperor's trials. The emperor is said to have removed whole families and _clans_ that way.
There was also a mention in the Entekosiad of the Dendara cult in 1300, trying to remain exlusively a noble-woman's cult. It was apparently opened up by the Lunars. (But no mention was made of that happening with the Yelm cult.)
>The only requirement of exclusivity in the cult of Yelm is that to
become a initiate of Yelm, your father must have been one...[as nobles]
there
will be a surplus of people who cannot be supported by the economy...
they will have to get a
job and thus migrate downwards into the lower social classes.
I can see the logic of this. I think surviving younger sons of Yelmic "nobles" make up the bulk of the solar (non-Lodrilli) priesthoods, educated classes, and almost all of the army officers - the top couple levels of society. There are a lot of "poor nobles" who have to work for a living. (Note that even rich nobles have to spend a lot of time figuring out how to make more money, and how to keep their houses strong.)
Over time you find guys with Yelmic fathers who might have to dig ditches or something, but I'll bet they're no longer accepted into the Yelm cult. My guess is that the bulk of them go into the army and dutifully get killed.
What evidence have you seen for the ending of castes in Dara Happa? They certainly seemed healthy in 1260. (Addi numbers them in the Entekosiad.) And the solar cultures are among the most rigid and reactionary on the lozenge. The Lunars may have made inroads, and increased social mobility, but deleted the whole system?
> Because of the Urban focus of Dara Happan Society, there
is no such thing as a country noble.
Who owns the land? If nobles don't own land, what have they got?
>I really think we need to move away from the belief that Yelm is the
One True Sun God and Yelmalio is the intercessor. IMO this belief
is peculiar to Sun County because they are worshipping a 'Cold Sun'
in the middle of a blazing desert.
I think the Sun County folks believe it because Monrough took a lot of ideas directly from the Dara Happans. He bound Yelmalio closer to Yelm, so his priests could get Sunspear. (Isn't that what KOS implies?)
>Lodril is not the intercessor between Yelm and Mankind. He is
the Earth Father and is the major men's god of the peasantry.
Yup - the peasantry is most of mankind. If you're a peasant, you only talk to Lodril. (Dendara may also play an intercessionary role.) Now if you mean that the DH Lodrilli don't think of Lodril as an ex-sky god, or the brother of Yelm, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
>The Pentans do not _see_ Kargzant as the son of Yelm. Yelm is an
evil god worshipped by the spineless soft city dwellers who fancy
boys instead of horses.
So why did Sheng give preferential treatment to Yelmies? (Still not real pleasant, but not horriffic.)
> If the[Yelm] cult is small (1% of the population), then it runs the
risk of being exterminated after a major setback. Given that Dara Happa
has suffered Arkat, the Spolites, the EWF, the Dragonkill War, the Bull
Shahs *and* Sheng Seleris, it would be a major miracle if the Yelmic
nobility still managed to survive.
Plentonius addresses this. When the ranks are decimated, "whole new families are discovered to be descended of Yelm", or words to that effect. Not too tricky, with lots of younger sons of younger sons serving as third rank apprentice scribes. That's why it's VERY important to keep track of one's lineage.
JB>How many third and later sons go into a celibate monkhood?
Some. My guess is most go into the army. (And try to become Polaris logistics officers instead of those in the front lines with spears.)
JB>We have (finally) learned that Orlanthi initiation is into the
pantheon.
What about the Yelmies? We know that they have specific initiation into
the
mysteries of Yelm (but so do the Orlanth subcults). Wouldn't any
initiate of
a city god be an associate of Yelm anyway, in Dara Happa?
I would think so. I see the pantheon as all the Dara Happan deities. You worship them all, but are initiated only to those appropriate to your caste.
Thus, as a Lodrilli in the fields around Raibanth, you are initiated into the mysteries of Lodril. Lodril is your rolemodel. You worship Oria quite a bit, too. You worship Yelm (though not deeply, like Lodril!) when the Lodril priests round you up, but the free beer afterwards is a worthy enough compesation. You throw some butter in the fire for Shargash, so your brother in the army won't be killed this month. You worship Oslira on her days, to keep the river at the right level. Although Lodril is technically an "associate" of Yelm, that just means their priests are in cahoots. If you were to actually get close enough to one of them spire or footstool temples to ask for a spell, you'd likely get arrested and pressed into the army for yer touble - even if you did bring a chicken!
Now, if you're the the third son of a retired supply officer for the First Cavalry of Jillaro, you likely live on a small farm near the forests of Aggar. Years an' years ago, your great great grandfather was a great Sunlord from a noble house in Raibanth. Times being what they are (and they're always getting worse!), your dad can't afford the entrance fee for the Yelm the Youth cult for you. Maybe, if you do really well, or somehow make a lot of money, you can go to Raibanth, recite your famous lineage to the Imperatur of that house, and he will get you in. But then what? You don't know anyone there, anyway. You're better off to just go to Jillaro, and maybe learn all about bridge building from the Mohenjari - or maybe even that really wierd Dwarin Halthippa wench. There's always a need for lads with a head for numbers...
Pam
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #41
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