You can argue semantics if you want to, but I still see the social classes in DH as very diverse and pretty darn rigid. One of the first few red emperors (probably around 1500 or so) had to officially declare the lowest class of river dwellers as "officially human". Frog boy doesn't even think of dryland farmers in his list of People of the World, let alone nobles. Doesn't sound to me like there's a lot of mixing. I imagine that there are periods of great social upheaval, when people are jumbled up a bit and move into different areas or roles, (such as Avivath's time), but otherwise, I think social classes are pretty permanent for an individual.
The Lunars have changed some of that, but mostly on an individual level. (Frog Boy was chosen by a Lunar after he had revealing dreams, and Addi ran away to join the goddess' army of women.)
So, in short, you are proposing that the Yelm the Youth and Warrior subcults are prominent throughout urban areas, among nearly all folk. I'm proposing that they are restricted to the higher classes, but I agree that those classes can include people of all levels of wealth. Dara Happa is not our modern western society. A poor Yelmie would still have more rights and priveleges than a wealthy Lodrilli. The Lodrilli might try to buy his way into the Yelm cult, but it's still an effort.
> We even have the example of how one [Avivath]
who did not have a Yelmic Father can become a _Priest_ of Yelm the
Elder by switching to that cult after achieving Priest status in his
own (ie Lodril, Oslira, Molanni etc).
But note that Avivath is still invisible to anyone of noble rank! He has became a culture hero of the poor - or at least perceived as one by the literate classes. And his accomplishment (beggar/Hyaloring priest to Yelm priest) is still talked about 1500 years later!
> Also note the padders class (according to the Frog Boy Story in
Questlines) is open to everyone
who accepts the rules of the commune, no restriction about caste is even
implied.
But even they have a myth about their ancestoral frogs. Frog boy sees the Boaters and Fishers as completely different folk from himself. The padders - the Lodrilli rice farmers - are so different from his family that his father tells Frog Boy that the padders mate with pigs! Still, my guess is that the water-people's society is far more egalitarian. (How high and mighty can you claim to be, huddling your family under a blanket in the middle of a rice paddy during a winter storm?).
>IMO yes for the city folk only. The Countryfolk would be initiated
into the 'Lodrili' Pantheon.
Yelm and Lodril are in the same pantheon. The cities and the countryside depend on each other. To assume they are completely seperate cultures is ludicrous, IMO. There are several views *within* that pantheon, but that's nothing unique. A Lodrilli will tell you that Lodril is the Earthfather, and with his luscious and hardworking wife Oria, really run the show. Yelm is the greedy and lazy older brother, whom Lodril allows to do the boring stuff. But then Theya Two Mothers would tell you that Ernalda Earthmother is the really important deity, and her husband Orlanth is good mostly for taking care of all those piddling details, like lawsuits and broo bashing.
Jim Chapin
> By that I mean that all the sons of Yelm are themselves potential
members of the cult, which, over time, means
that many Yelmies would be poor farmers, as is the case with Italian
nobility, frex.
I can see the MGF of this, and I'm sure it happens. But, since this is Glorantha, how successful is that poor farmer going to be if he doesn't initiate to Lodril? And, once he's a Lodrilli, I don't see him convincing the examiners that is son should be a Yelmie. In short, I don't think maintaining a family membership in the Yelm cult is possible for long unless it fits with one's lifestyle and economic status. But if you keep track of your lineage, during the next upheaval, you can crawl out of the woodwork and make your bid....
> I have said that the Nobility dominate the Higher Ranks of the Yelm
Cult (ie All Yelm Imperators and most Yelm Elders).
All I said that most city dwellers were members of Yelm the Youth at the
best.
I 'spose you could interpret things that way. I just don't see it happening beyond the literate classes. And I imagine 90% of even the city dwellers as illerate tradesman, crafters, laborers, soldiers, unemployed mobs, etc. Do you see it differently?
> Dendara in her aspect of as the Noble Wife. Most urban commoners are
too poor to keep a wife at home all day
so she has to get a job. In such a case, she would worship other
goddesses than Dendara.
Too complex for my Dara Happa. "Aspects of Dendara"? They Dara Happans had to split Dendara from Entekos, precisely because Entekos was too common for Yelm.
>>Over time you find guys with Yelmic fathers who might have to dig
>ditches or something, but I'll bet they're no longer accepted into the
>Yelm cult.
>Why? This is not _implied_ by the Yelm Cult Writeup.
No, but the write ups are very short and outdated compared to the societies described in the newer sources. Nothing in the write ups says that Yelm is only an urban deity, either.
>But the Nobles live in the City for the large part of their lives.
They only visit the land estates once a year to ensure that it is
well kept and give it his blessings (fertility) for the year. They
are to some extent absentee landlords not medieval lords in their
country castles. Much of the land is governed by the Overseers
who have to look after the land for the noble and make sure the
revenues pour in.
This makes a lot of sense. But over time, wouldn't you send those extra grandsons out to be the overseers? My model of DH Yemlites and nobility are huge, extended families, spread across several rural estates and at least one city. They consist of people of varying wealth and social ranks, but probably all "firsts and seconds". ("Seconds" seem to be priests, scribes, clerks, merchants, landowners, officers, etc. Not tradesmen or laborers.) If the family begins to outstrip its resources, or had members that were "disgraceful", they are quitely sent off, forced into the army, employed in dart wars to try to increase family wealth, killed, etc - as long as it saves face.
(What was it Loren said of Carmanians - "the only thing worse than dealing with your house is not having one"?)
>>So why did Sheng give preferential treatment to Yelmies? (Still not real
>pleasant, but not horriffic.)
>What preferential treatment is this? He despoiled their temples and
imported Kralori rites and magics which still has not been totally
expunged.
Really? How so? I read that he sent some DH Yelm priests to Kralorela to try to change the solar religion there. And he used the Yelmic nobility already in position to rule through - his steppe horsemen were quite unsuited for it.
Peter - thanks for the info on "Knackers". That's a bit of color that's
been lost here in the States...
We did have for a while, though, "stallion carts". These were small
carts designed to be pulled by one horse. This horse was usually a good
stallion, and the owner would drive him from farm to farm, looking for
people who wanted to breed their mares. Many farmers with mares find it
more convenient to pay a stud fee every other year than bother with
keeping a stallion - 1200 pound of hormones with very little brain.
(See, that would probably be an acceptable profession for a poor Yelmie - - involves horses but no digging....)
Pam
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