>So, in short, you are proposing that the Yelm the Youth and Warrior
>subcults are prominent throughout urban areas, among nearly all folk.
>I'm proposing that they are restricted to the higher classes, but I
>agree that those classes can include people of all levels of wealth.
But city folk are 'higher class' compared to those who live in the country and even to those who live in a town without walls. This would make roughly 5% of the population worshipping Yelm, which is pretty exclusive IMO.
Me>>We even have the example of how one [Avivath]
>>who did not have a Yelmic Father can become a _Priest_ of Yelm the
>>Elder by switching to that cult after achieving Priest status in his
>>own (ie Lodril, Oslira, Molanni etc).
I wasn't talking of Avivath here despite the inserted brackets. I was talking about the Yelm Cult rules on how one can become a Yelm the Elder. This is not a rare occurence.
Pam comments:
>And Avivath accomplishment (beggar/Hyaloring priest
>to Yelm priest) is still talked about 1500 years later!
Avivath was a Hyaloring Priest?
>> Also note the padders class [...] is open to everyone who accepts
>>the rules of the commune, no restriction about caste is even implied.
>But even they have a myth about their ancestoral frogs.
The Frog People are Mudders not Padders. I'm not convinced that all Mudders are Frog People since the latter are local to Darjiin and there are some chartalans among the Frog People.
>>IMO yes for the city folk only. The Countryfolk would be initiated
>>into the 'Lodrili' Pantheon.
>Yelm and Lodril are in the same pantheon. The cities and the countryside
>depend on each other. To assume they are completely seperate cultures
>is ludicrous, IMO.
I'm not assuming they are two 'completely seperate' cultures. I'm saying that the division between Yelm and Lodril exists between the Cities and the Country, not between the Nobles and the Urban Commoners. A seperate division inside the cult (between nobles and commoners) is implied by the writeup.
[Poor peasants worshipping Yelm]
>I can see the MGF of this, and I'm sure it happens. But, since this is
>Glorantha, how successful is that poor farmer going to be if he doesn't
>initiate to Lodril? And, once he's a Lodrilli, I don't see him
>convincing the examiners that is son should be a Yelmie.
He can hold dual cult membership in both Lodril and Yelm. He will be disdained by the nobility and the urban commoners but since Lodril is an assoicated cult, there is nothing to prevent him from holding a dual initiateship. This is how IMO most of descendants of Lodrili migrants into the city are eventually converted into Yelmics.
Also the examiners are not uniformly conservative bigots. Some might operate a more liberal entrance fee than others to line their pockets or stuff like that. I think we need to move away from assuming that Yelm is generally an absolutely stuffy religion.
>In short, I don't think maintaining a family membership in the Yelm
>cult is possible for long unless it fits with one's lifestyle and
>economic status.
Insofar as beggars and proles can not afford the fee, I agree. However Yelm the Youth is a mark of urban adulthood. In practice, think of the fee as a coming of age tax. Look at the benefits - he's officially a citizen.
Me>> I have said that the Nobility dominate the Higher Ranks of the Yelm
>>Cult (ie All Yelm Imperators and most Yelm Elders). All I said that
>>most city dwellers were members of Yelm the Youth at the best.
>I 'spose you could interpret things that way. I just don't see it
>happening beyond the literate classes. And I imagine 90% of even the
>city dwellers as illerate tradesman, crafters, laborers, soldiers,
>unemployed mobs, etc. Do you see it differently?
There is no requirement for literacy in Yelm. I don't see any problem with tradesmen, crafters etc being members of Yelm the Youth anymore than stickpickers are members of Orlanth. Some soldiers would be members of Yelm the Archer but most citizens quite happily combine their worship of Yelm the Youth with some other god (Nysalor for the mobs frex).
>Nothing in the write ups says that Yelm is only an urban deity, either.
I thought I quoted a piece from the Lunar Empire Writeup which said that the City Dwellers claim they are the rulers because they worship Yelm as opposed to the peasants. Also the Yelm Cult writeup says that the Major and Great Temples are found in the cities.
[suggestion of Nobles as absentee landlords]
>This makes a lot of sense. But over time, wouldn't you send those
>extra grandsons out to be the overseers?
The Overseers are more probably clan retainers IMO. Some kin who have dropped beneath the four generation horizon would take on a job as an overseer but it's a demeaning job as it marks you as a country hick.
>>>So why did Sheng give preferential treatment to Yelmies?
>>What preferential treatment is this? He despoiled their temples and
>>imported Kralori rites and magics which still has not been totally
>>expunged.
>Really? How so?
p76 Fortunate Succession
Sheng Seleris thought nothing of destroying any temple or Priesthood that stood in his way. The many years of his reign gave him a chance to plunder almost every city and town in Dara Happa, and most of them were pillaged many times. Destruction was widespread, and many sacred places destroyed. Sheng imported forces from the furthest reaches of his empire to pacify Dara Happa. Among these were priesthoods which he tried to transplant into the land
Also noted elsewhere are the mystic cults worshipped by the Dolathi and New Monks.
>I read that he sent some DH Yelm priests to Kralorela
>to try to change the solar religion there.
Not just Yelm, any Priesthood (even the Lunars!). They were prisoners and didn't do it out of choice. Sheng also sent in some Pikemen to screw the Kralori up.
> And he used the Yelmic nobility already in position to rule through -
>his steppe horsemen were quite unsuited for it.
I presume Pam is using the reference of Magnificus coming to Raibanth and find several noble families beginning to contest the Ten Tests. IMO these 'nobles' were in fact Sheng _quislings_ rather than being allowed to rule because of their (assumed) Yelmic Status.
I don't believe his Khans were unsuited to ruling - the RW horse nomads have done reasonably well in forging empires and governing them (Mongols, Turks etc).
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #46
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
Powered by hypermail