I think part of the underlying question here is what exactly is 'worship'. Peter thinks that the Lunar Empire writeup saying that the city dwellers "worship" Yelm is strong evidence that they are initiated into the Yelm cult. But does worship imply initiation? I think everyone agrees that worship implies initiation into something, but if the bulk of the population is initiated into an associated cult of Yelm, does that count as worship?
Now, obviously I think it does. But I don't bring the subject up just to score points with Peter in the Yelmic debate. There is a more important issue here, which has come up several times recently (the smith debate, for example), and has important rules implications as well as Gloranthan ones.
Simply put - what counts as worship? We can include in that question what do we need to maintain a temple, what is an associated initiate expected to do, what exactly does 'initiation into a pantheon' mean in terms of cult rituals, and how does the concept mean in terms of our old concept of an initiate?
To put it in terms slightly less relevent to the current debate, to encourage those embroiled in it to take a step back...
If person A is initiated into the cult of Issaries, and person B is initiated into the cult of Orlanth according to the old rules, we now know that they are both initiates of the Orlanth pantheon. What does this mean?
I think it means that both 'worship' Orlanth. And Issaries. and the others. Many Orlanthi ceremonies involve a blessing from Issaries. Many Issaries ceremonies acknowledge Orlanth. Both cults get some benefit for this - at least they get access to some of each others spells, but do they also get the benefit of the others initiates as regards to maintaining temples? I think they do. Does which god you are initiated into matter that much for these purposes? I think the whole idea of pantheon initiation is that it does not matter that much - if you are initiated into one of the main gods, you worship the others when appropriate as a matter of course.
Now, the small cults might still have problems maintaining large temples. The number of 'true' initiates is no doubt still important somehow (perhaps for maintaining a link to the deity rather than determining how many spells are available through it). Perhaps many of the minor associated cults only get acknowledged at certain times of the year - so everyone might acknowledge Elmal during the Winter Solstice festival, but he might not rate a mention in earth season, and so the cults 'temple size' bounces around during the year.
I would appreciate comment on this issue - I think its important enough that its worth working out what the majority feeling is, so that we have some idea of what we can assume about these issues. So please comment by email or here (if you are just going to simply agree or disagree with whats been said, email is probably better, to avoid rule 1 violations). I am happy to write up something detailed on the issue if we come to any conclusions. I suspect we are always better of with rule of thumb rather than rules, though.
Here are my rough rules of thumb as they stand. Comment welcome. I think it is plain that the RQ3 rules as they stand no longer reflect current thinking on this issue.
NB for Worship spells, read worship services if my explanation is
too rules-centric - I play RQ, and expressing things in rules terms helps
to express everything more precisely.
1. The variety of spells available to renew depends on number of
worshippers. Very small numbers of worshippers (<100) get nothing much,
then shrines get a few. You need around 100 for it to be magically
effective: Source: Horned God writeup in GOG, 7x7x2 number from KOS. Note
that without this number, you can't renew Worship spells, so the site can't
maintain itself.
2. Associated cult initiates help maintain temple sizes.
EITHER They are less effective, as they are much less dedicated worshippers, probably in a ratio of 5:1 to 20:1. Or perhaps Worship spells for associated deities are limited in effectiveness as to when they are useful or how much support they give worshippers.
This does mean, though, that a temple with 2000 initiates will be
able to maintain shrines to all its associated cults, which is what we know
from an RQ Great Temple.
3. We know that most Theyalan cultures (or at least we know for the
Orlanthi, and we assume it is similar for others) have pantheon initiation.
I assume this means that initiates to gods in the pantheon participate in
worship services to the others, and thus count towards the number of
initiates needed to maintain temple size. I don't think pantheon initiation
means that most initiates don't have a favoured deity - or at least, if it
does it would be a major change to the rules that I am going to avoid until
there is a pressing reason.
Anyway, after that big issues question, back to the Yelmic bits.
First, how does all the above stuff apply to the Yelmic debate? I think that Yelmites and Lodrili both initiate to the pantheon, and thus both participate in worship services for Yelm and Lodril to some degree. Thus both are able to maintain large temples as appropriate, and both can be said to worship both deities. Thus whether the majority of the populace is eligible to participate in the inner mysteries of the Yelm cult is a different (though related) issue as to whether they all worship Yelm.
>If the not-yelm worshippers
>revolted over some social issue (ie the question of debt law relating
>to not-Yelmics), then the nobles cannot handle the crisis on their own.
>To survive, they must either compromise or call in the army. But if
>the army is composed of not-Yelmics, then the nobility is *screwed*.
The army commanders are Yelmics, even if the average grunt isn't. Having the commanders on side is probably more important than being popular with the troops, especially if the commanders are both popular and possessed of some political nous.
But the average grunt is probably in a cult that has been indoctrinating him to obey the Yelmics anyway. Looking at it from a mythic point of view, the average grunt is probably initiated into a cult of one of Yelms dutiful sons or servants. Looking at it cynically, the priests of the associate cults know that they have a realistic chance to enter the ranks of the Yelmic aristocracy if they do the right thing. There certainly are still tensions within Yelmic society, but I don't think its any less stable than anywhere else.
>The Lodrili Priesthood is *suppressed* (because anybody
>who knows or has access to Rebellion is a dire menace to society) save
>for a few priests who are closely guarded.
No, the Monster Man subcult is suppressed. And the invisible spears. But the Lodril priesthood itself is an essential part of Yelmic society. Lodril is an enormously popular religion in Peloria, as popular as Orlanthi in Dragon Pass (which is actively suppressed, and yet still has plenty of priests). And knowing Rebellion (which is a spell of the suppressed Monster Man subcult) is not in itself a dire threat to society anyway - it takes lots of priests all upset enough to actually use it. I'm sure the nobles worry about it, and suppress it, but most of the time they have far more pressing things to worry about.
>They mostly have acolytes.
I'm sure they have mostly acolytes - not that many farming communities will be happy to support more than a very small number of people who spend all their time on religious duties, but I'm sure lots are willing to support a guy with religious duties but who nevertheless pitches in at harvest time. But I don't think its because of suppression (well, other than economic).
Sorry about the length and dryness of this post, everybody. This issue (the initiate one, not the Yelm one) has been annoying me for years.
Cheers
Dave
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