In response to some of my comments on the pantheon initiation thing, David Cake wrote:
>...And just because everyone joins a cult more or less automatically
>at adulthood doesn't mean that it isn't a big deal.....And rituals that have
> no such element can still be a very important event in the life of someone
> - catholic confirmation, for example, is certainly a big deal in some
>communities. I think Orlanthi, for one, do have such a ritual (I think its
>described in Apple Lane) - an initiation that is open to everyone, and that
>everyone succeeds at, but that is still a big deal, because it means your
>an adult.
Yes, agreed; I apologize if somehow my post left the impression that I thought that these more-or-less "automatic" rituals are somehow unimportant. In fact, to clarify my position, I should say that I actually find these rituals, and the very public, very common festivities and rites that would occupy a regular place in a religious (yearly or seasonal) calender to be _more_ important than the more irregular and individual rituals of more obscure cults -- hence my suggestion for a "lifeline" or "lifepath" calendar of transformative, threshold-crossing rituals as a companion to the yearly calendar. I may have been mistaken when, in making a distinction between open and initiated cults, I suggested that entry into initiated cults would require some "special" knowledge or achievement, in that I did not mean "special" in this case to mean _important_ or _more valued_, only "not common". Entry into an initiated cult, IMO, would simply be _restricted_, as would progress within it, and the fact that there are restrictions does not somehow make the cult "better" or "more important", IMO. In fact, most of the cults that I think of as falling into that category strike me as being considerably _less_ important, at least to the overall community, than more open cults.
There is a part of me that is very hesitant about using the terms "secrets" and "mysteries" in discussing the broad religious function of cults and divinities. David notes, frex:
>It is certainly possible to have religious practices that are followed by a
large
>percentage of society and are also secrets reserved only for initiates, and
>I think this is actually a good model of many Gloranthan societies.
and Pam Carlson had previously noted:
>Another part of actually being initiated to a *diety*, is that you learn
>special "pitfall" secrets. Frex, Yelmies learn that Kazkurtem is a full
>aspect of Yelm the Emperor, as Lodrilli learn that they, too, can become
>Monster Man, and Orlanthi learn that Ragnalar can be found within
>themselves, and Ernaldans learn that the Great Mother might just as soon
>kill folk as help them. These "secrets" are not widely publicised
>outside the initiated! Priests and rune lords learn even more secrets,
>which allow them to walk more obscure and dangerous paths than the
>average initiate.
While I agree in the need for Secret Cult Lore in some cases, I'm not sure if such a thing should be really wide-spread. To take some of Pam's specific examples, frex, I can't help but think that the cyclical, help-you hurt-you nature of the Great Mother would actually be common knowledge, that the all-encompassing nature of the deity would be stressed in all cult rituals -- men may not be invited to them, depending on local tradition, but this does not make it a "secret" IMO. I have to admit that I thought that part of the reason Lodril was under a Yelmic thumb, so to speak, was precisely _because_ of the Monster Man rebellion potential of the Lodrilli -- which hardly makes that much of a secret, either -- and the notion of the "Ragnalar in every Orlanthi" actually strikes me as the preachings of a true mystery cult, the secret teachings of the Orlanthi Mysterium Cult, rather than the stuff of High Holy Day festivities common to Orlanthi everywhere.
While I agree that there are certainly many RW examples of such mysteries, and that many Gloranthan cults can fall into that category, I must admit that since I tend to think of Greco-Roman and Near Eastern religion as the beginning model I still think of the "mystery" cult, with its ritual path of initiation, as being both separate from broader, more _public_ religion and in many cases actually opposed to it. One of the difficulties in dealing with the notion of pantheon initiation, IMO, is precisely that the language and model of cult initiation on which 'da roolz' are currently based is an individualistic one, following the pattern of secret and private revelation and indoctrination common to the Ancient Mysteries and raising it to the level of a paradigm (sorry, big word), and not a communal and public one. Since cults are perceived from the POV of the individual Player-Character, and not from the POV of a broad community, there tends to be an emphasis on how a cult benefits an individual; this may also be partly a function of the nature of divine magic, which is very local in scope, and the underlying notion of the HeroQuest, which by its very nature is individualistic (though the recent notions of the HQ Ring and the HeroQuester as communal representative seem to be moving away from that). Don't really know how to rectify it, though.
Just some thoughts. YGMV.
Mark
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