Saravan wrote some good comments backing up Pam's notion of cultic mysteries, ending with:
>I think it must be a combination of the two [examples given], and that
>initiates can gain those insights, which might be called "mysteries"
>and quantified by Secret Cult Lore (or not), through experience and effort.
At this point I am essentially willing to concede on the question of mysteries, but I would note that on a certain level I still think there is, in effect, a distinction between Cult Lore and Secret Cult Lore. In my old gaming group's campaigns, Gloranthan or not, most cults were portrayed as having just Cult Lore -- the insights, knowledge and teachings of the cult, learned by priests and initiates; the more or less "official" explanations and interpretations, emotional or spiritual or otherwise, of the divinity and its myths, which could easily be interpreted as a mystical experience of the cult's teachings. This Lore may or may not be available to outsiders, but that's purely a question of cult public relations. _Secret_ Cult Lore, OTOH, tends to be a body of secret knowledge, which sometimes even contradicts the "official" Cult Lore, and is generally only available to priests in cults which even have such a body of knowledge to begin with (most don't) -- or must be discovered in dusty forgotten and forbidden tomes (and tombs) or on HeroQuests. Just a variation to consider.
On the question of including oppositional rituals in a cult's calendar, Michael Raaterova wrote on a general level:
>I'm not sure that all of the oppositional rituals would be intentional
>interference with another culture's rituals. Some of them could be directly
>against the _phenomenon_ that results from other cultures' rituals, and
>thus only indirectly against the culture.
Yes, agreed, though I think the _effect_ would essentially be the same, i.e., interference in the "opposing" ritual in some manner -- sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the interference is "physical" or even conscious, that priests and HeroQuesters are constantly trying to break down the doors of temples or distract the priests of other cults while they're performing their ceremonies, though I think that probably happens with some regularity during certain specific rituals (frex, IMO, the Hill of Gold Quest for Yelmalions should obviously have "shadow" or "oppositional" rituals or Quests amongst the Orlanthi and ZZers; the IceBreaker rituals are clearly in this pattern; and even the Lightbringer Holy Day, more on that later). Most of that opposition should probably be represented more abstractly -- hence the idea of expending magical energy to increase the difficulty of someone else's ritual, or perhaps even something like curse and binding rituals -- and I'm not sure if the cultists would even be consciously aware of what they were doing in some ways (depends on cult myths, or perhaps their knowledge of Secret Cult Lore? :-)).
Michael wrote some more on the midwinter stuff along the same lines...
>The midwinter rituals will vary tremendously from culture to culture. Uz
>try to eat the weakened sun, Chaotics try to destabilize everything,
>Orlanthi embark on the rescue of Ernalda, Yelmalions fight darkness and
>chaos so that Yelm can resurrect himself, Elmali fight darkness and chaos
>to protect the Ernalda-rescuers, Solars resurrect the Sun, Aldryami protect
>the World Tree, and Mostali try to stop everybody else from interfering
>with the proper schedule of winter. Praxians support Valind and Inora (for
>the snow and rain) but fight chaos and darkness.
Actually, I suspect part of the problem here may be a YG/MG thing, in that I tend to interpret the midwinter festival as specifically Sun-related -- as the shortest day, when the Sun is weakest, though this may be too RW in nature; I have to admit that off the top of my head I am uncertain if, according to official word, the Sun acts the same way in Glorantha. As Paul Edson pointed out:
>In the midst of winter, it is not the necessary
>fallowness of the fields which is generally celebrated, but the
>coming return of warmth and light.
"Mourned" might be a better word than celebrated, though. Ernalda's time in the Underworld (or Aldrya's, or the death of Flamal) affects the _whole_ of Winter, and IMO would be marked by festivals at both winter's beginning and end (mirrors your own thinking, I believe), with the rituals of rescue coming during a specific two-week period, assuming the Lightbringer model (and with a possible period of attonement thrown in, a fasting rite similar, perhaps, to Ramadan?); mid-winter, OTOH and IMO, is marked as the day the Sun is weakest, and so most of the rituals would be solar in nature. This is, of course, strictly IMO/IMG, but I would point out that Michael's description of varying midwinter rituals actually all jibes pretty well with a few exceptions (particularly as, from the perspective of pantheons and festivals, I make no distinction between "Orlanthi" or "Elmali" for the most part; they're the same folks in the same village, IMO) -- Darkness cults, sneaky Chaos bastards, the forces of Winter and Ice, all arrayed against cults bringing back the Sun, or mourning the Earth and the Tree, and praying for the return of Spring and the Good Crop and the Kind Wind (perhaps the Mostali can be fit in as a Disorder vs. Order moment). Looked at as a whole, they encompass the entirety of the mythic interplay of midwinter's day.
>And what about other HD rituals? Orlanth's HHD is bound to have opposition,
>but from whom, and why?
I agree completely that not all holy days or festivals would have "opposites", which is why I suggested "a lot of rituals" and not "all rituals" be considered within an oppositional context, and, in fact, it may even be fewer than I originally suspected. On Orlanth in specific, my interpretation of the Orlanth write-up in _RoC_ was that Orlanth's high holy day(s) is the Lightbringers' Festival and Quest into the Underworld, so we actually have a pretty good list already of the Orlanthi opposition. Assuming that there is Mythic Truth in something as important as the Lightbringers' Quest, then the other oppositional cults involved would probably mark the event ritually, even if they interpret it mythically in a different light or manner (as a time of failure and mourning, frex).
Anyway, I agree completely with Michael that the stumbling block in a systemic description of a festival/ritual calendar is the difficulty of describing the effects of "Magical Cooperation"; I like the setup of Nils' YAHQS on one level, but OTOH think it makes the most sense to tie the influence or support of a community in some way to magic points or POW sacrifice. It might be possible to make the difficulty ratings of festivals, rituals and holy days be based on a mp/POW expenditure, with pantheon intitiates, cult initiates, and priests/lords being able to contribute different amounts with variable effects depending on the threshold levels crossed, but that's starting to become a numbers-heavy system; don't have any immediate suggestions, I'm afraid.
I also second Michael's idea that Sacred Time rituals would give some kind of bonus or penalty for the entirety of the following year based on their relative success, though I'm a bit wary of the term "karma" :-).
Finally, Paul Edson asked:
>The QUERY: Where, both geographically and reference-wise, does one
>find Firshala? Sounds interesting, but I can't find her in any of the
>stuff I have... (I know, you find her on the God Plane...)
Firshala was/is a trapped spirit-goddess of fire who could be freed by resourceful PCs; the scenario appeared in both the OOP _Griffin Mountain_ and in _Griffin Island_. In _GM_, the location of her entrapment wasn't specific, the scenario could be set anywhere in the Elder Wilds of Balazar.
As my last few posts have been exceedingly long-winded, I promise I'll try
and cut myself down to a paragraph or two in the near future (sigh). Just
some thoughts.
Mark
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