>>I think that Yelmites and Lodrili both initiate to the pantheon, and thus
>>both participate in worship services for Yelm and Lodril to some degree.
>
>But are the urban commoners Lodrili? To make the point more explicit,
>your model implies that worshippers of both Lodril and non-Yelmic
>Civic Gods will contribute equally to the worship of Yelm in the same
>way. This does not fit well with what we know of Dara Happan society
>(in that City Life is considered to be the optimal social situation).
The Lodrili peasant worship of Yelm does indeed help support the mythic social order, and keep Yelm powerful, and so on, and is thus good. But there is more to the cults than just keeping the MPs and mythic power flowing. No sensible Dara Happan would consider country life to be preferred to city life (by definition), as country life is full of debauched boorish farmers and lacks civilised pleasures like the theatre or evenings of Dara Happan dance, even if the peasantry do their bit to keep Yelm strong. Acknowledging Yelm in worship is the mythic equivalent of being a good citizen and paying your taxes. But being in the Yelm cult is a sign of better breeding, able to take on responsibilities that the peasantry or lower classes can't really handle, poor things. Think arrogant class system all the way. All IMG of course.
>>Having the commanders on side is probably more important
>>than being popular with the troops, especially if the commanders
>>are both popular and possessed of some political nous.
>
>Commanders that have popularity and political nous. The sterling
>RW examples of commanders like this would be Marius, Sulla, Pompey,
>Alcibiades, Togukawa and Julius Caesar, all of whom David will be
>well advised to look at to see how well they served the status quo.
>Also look at the Praetorian Guard.
There is a difference between maintaining the current leadership, and maintaining the current social order. Army commanders do indeed rebel, and indeed I was thinking of people like various rebellious Roman generals when I made the comment (well, Julius Caesar and Pompey were a special case in that that was the time of creation of the institution of Emperor - but numerous rebellious generals who attained great power later demonstrate the point better). Army commanders from Dara Happa are Yelmic themselves - they are not going to threaten Yelmic dominance more than they can help it. They are just going to rearrange the upper echelons of the social order to put them and their family and retainers that little bit higher. If they do extremely well, its time for the Ten Tests - the ultimate act of rebellion and at the same time the ultimate maintenance of the Yelmic order of things.
The only real threat to the social order is when you either somehow allow non-Yelmic generals, or there is invasion from the outside. The greatest threats to the Empire are when the nobility starts to become non-Yelmic (i.e. Umbarites, or outside invasion such as Carmanians), rather than when one bunch of Yelmites defeats another.
The Praetorian Guard is another good example of how some sorts of rebellion don't really change things much. Certainly many Emperors got it in the neck from the Guard. But the Guard would generally then go on to install another Emperor, one better disposed towards them. Which was in their interest, much more so than rubbish about restoring the republic or other schemes to hand control back to the peasants and livestock*.
I think it was similar in Dara Happa, with most internal fighting resulting in changing one Yelmic family for another, though a lot less bloody now there is the Emperors Tax Demons to worry about (they've just switched to assassination and ambush rather than outright warfare). I think the Dart Competitions are tolerated simply because they are a safe way of seizing power without threatening society at large - the more things change the more they stay the same. Non-Yelmites with a grudge against a particular noble (that avoid being executed) can be absorbed into the Dart War system.
The closest the peasants have come to overturning Yelmic supremacy is by subverting the Yelm cult, rather than rebellion. If the Yelm the Servant fad has lasted, then the peasants might really have come close to overturning the Yelmic nobilities grip on things. I think even most Monster Man rebellions eventually end up replacing the bad Imperator with a better one, rather than trying to overthrow Yelmic rule entirely (now, the Gorgorma faction probably does try and destroy Yelmic rule entirely, but they are far too scary to attract widespread support even in a rebellion - even the most outraged Lodrili still values his masculine parts).
> The Priests of associate cults do not become nobles when
>they join the cult of Yelm the Elder:
>
> 'This is the only way in which a person without a Yelmic Father
> can join the cult. Even so, he cannot be a noble, as this is
> restricted to members of Yelm Imperator'.
My interpretation is that a non-Yelmic can only rise to the status of Yelm the Elder, BUT their children are fully Yelmic. They could thus become Yelm Imperator IF they somehow obtained noble status (assuming that there are 'noble' positions that are not completely hereditary - awarded by the Senate, for example). IMO noble status and Yelmic status are different things, and both are required for Yelm Imperator membership. There are acknowledged nobles not in the Yelm cult (and all the Dara Happans feel very sorry for people unlucky enough to be ruled by them) and, of course, many Yelmites who are not nobles. But in the Dara Happan tripolis noble is a strict subset of Yelm worshipper, and implies Yelm Imperator status. Certainly, I admit that there is no particularly good grounds for assuming that those not of the ancient families can ever rise to Imperator status except by Imperial decree - Pam might be right when she says the 'four-generations' rule applies to all noble positions. But IMG, it suits my purposes that there is some potential for social climbing by barbarians, even if it takes a minimum of a generation.
Cheers
David
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