Lets start with the simplest misunderstanding - when Spring begins:
John Brown:
>As far as I know, the first day of Spring is the first day of Sea Season
As far as i know from Nick's dates of the equinoxes and solstices, the vernal equinox falls smack dab in the middle of Sacred Time. Spring, as i know it, doesn't begin after the equinox, but sometime between midwinter and the vernal equinox. That means that the mundane Spring begins before Sacred Time (even if Full Spring, Voria, wasn't born until after the IFWW).
>Well if your ideas are correct Mike, shouldn't the first day of Spring be on
>Orlanth's HHD?
Bascially it is. The Thunder Festival marks the passage from Winter to Spring, and Spring begins when Orlanth and Yelm agrees to friendship.
As a didactic myth, the LBQ stretches from Midwinter to Sacred Time, with the Thunder Festival rituals (being the most central) enacting the 'Hall of the Dead' stuff (KoS, p86). 'The Westfaring' and 'Into the Underworld' are performed sometime before the Thunder Festival, but after Midwinter. 'The Ritual of the Net' is the time between Thunder Festival and Sacred Time. 'The Return' is performed during Sacred Time, as this the IFWW, in my understanding.
I do not agree with John's understanding of IFWW, so i'll have to explain my position:
Reading 'the Return' (KoS, p89) and comparing it with 'I Fought We Won' (Uz Lore, p8), it seems obvious to me that they are the same thing.
The Last Person, which defeats chaos, is not _one_ person. It is constituted of the combined effort of all the gods and spirits and beings, who joined the compromise.
Why everyone fights alone in the IFWW mystery, is because all of them _are_ (in a mythical sense) the Last Person. That's why it's a personal battle. You don't choose a metaphoric incarnation, like Ernalda or Yelm or any other god, for your battle, because you are all of them. It's the mystery of the One and the Many from another perspective in another context.
John also queries the universalness of the IFWW:
>The LBQ is certainly not a universal myth. But how can you say the IFWW is? I
>doubt the Brithini follow it. I doubt orthodox dwarves follow it too. In
>fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are a ton of Gloranthan cultures who
>don't follow it. The IFWW, therefore, cannot be universal either.
All who agreed to the Compromise (in some way or another) joined the IFWW to fight chaos and renew the world. That's the extent of its universality. If your Brithini or orthodox Mostali didn't join the Compromise and the subsequent fight against chaos, then in your Glorantha it is of limited universality. IMG, that is not so - everybody fought (against or with) chaos (except the very few that didn't choose sides, but they don't count).
Ernalda and Yelm are necessary for the IFWW, because if they weren't resurrected by the LBQ there would be no Compromise and thus no IFWW and no new world. Chaos would have won (and some heretics say they did - we just didn't understand it).
Some related questions:
Nils:
>Michael R:
>>Isn't the LBQ the pinnacle not only for Orlanth, but also for CA, LM and
>>Issaries?
>An important thing yes, pinnacle no. CA, LM & I are the sidekicks in
>the LBQ. Their main, defining myths should be about them primarily.
As the LBQ is such an important myth, i think CA, LM and I have their own versions of the myth, where Orlanth is but a sidekick. The traditional Orlanth-version doesn't say what the other Lightbringers did when O had his argument with the Emperor. No doubt the LMs know that what LM did, and that it was absolutely crucial to the success of the quest. The same goes for CA and I as well.
Simon:
>Michael on the Light Bringers Quest:
>It must be said, though, that Sacred time IS the place for the
>Lightbringers Quest. This is because the world order breaks down and must be
>reinforced here. The Lightbringers Quest takes 14 days (in the Short Form) -
>it fits neatly into Sacred Time.
Nope. The world order breaks down when the Emperor is killed and Ragnaglar takes the chance to embrace chaos. The world order isn't reinforced by the resurrection of Yelm, it merely makes the subsequent restoration of order and the world possible.
Just because one version of the LBQ takes 14 days doesn't necessitate its performance during the equally long Sacred Time.
Simon also said that the sources say that the LBQ is performed during Sacred Time. The sources have been wrong on other occasions, and they are obviously wrong again. To add further to what's wrong in the sources, i'll mention the Runic Calendar, which sucks.
>Also, Sacred Time is outside normal time -
>in essence it is a reflection of GodTime, the perfect place for HeroQuests.
Oh yes. I couldn't agree more. There's one problem, however. The Heroquester has to convinve his community to support his quest, rather than the IFWW. If the quests were related it could be easy, though.
And, finally, i concede a bit by saying that some (confused orlanthi) regions and cultures could very well celebrate the LBQ (combined with the IFWW) during Sacred Time and have some other myth during his HHD. This is the compromising argument from Ian, who had some points i agree with. But i don't think that is the case in Sartar, Far Point or Orlanthi Tarsh and Prax.
Now, i'm ready to meet further arguments... Have i won _any_ converts?
A possibly heretical sidethought: in Esrolia, the LBQ is the Husbands' Quest, where all of Ernalda's Protectors has to cooperate to be able to save Ernalda and the world. The Husbands' Quest does not include CA, LM, I or Eurmal, but replaces them with the various earth protector gods, possibly including Babs Gor.
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #87
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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