> To take trolls (whose shamanic practices have been best explored)
>as an example, Nick says
>>Troll (Kyger Litor, Daka Fal, Gorakiki, Aranea)
>
> but trolls probably have lots of shamans that are not heavily
>involved in any of these four, and that are involved in many others
>besides. Certainly I think Gorakiki and Aranea are specialised cults,
Hmm, from the KL cult description and associated cults it infers that Daka Fal is pretty important to the Uz. Also, with Gorakiki and Aranea: Gorakiki is not specialised, a large number of Uz worship in it, and provides large amounts of nourishment for the clan. Check out the description of Dagori Inkarth Tribes in TrollPak -- it has a list of tribes and some of the larger ones worship Gorakiki. Aranea is specialised.
> I think this is typical of shamanic practice throughout Glorantha,
>and what we know of the other cultures tends to bear it out. Most nomad
>shamans might be in the Waha cult, but they also have a host of other
>spirits to deal with. Same with Doraddi shamans, same with Orlanthi shamans
>(there is a nice list for the Far Point region in Questlines), probably the
>same with most of them. Hsunchchen shamans too.
They will deal with other spirits a lot. I never said they wouldn't, in fact a shaman that didn't deal with additional spirits is rather odd IMHO. Are there any lists for Aldryami spirits BTW? Any takers?
> Which is what the GOG Horned God writeup is
>about, much more than it is about the Universal worship of a Horned God. So
>I guess what I am saying is there may be no actual Horned God worshipped
>throughout Glorantha, but the stuff in the Horned Man writeup in GOG is
>still mostly valid and very important.
The stuff in GoG can be applied to all shamans and may as well have been slipped into the shaman section of the main RQ rules. In fact, I hope it will be for the next addition of RQ (of course, I'll have died from old age before that comes out...)
Paul Honigman:
> The cults you mention tend to be primitive ones where the distinction
>between deity and ancestor spirit is blurred, and shamanism is not too
>far removed from the priestly viewpoint. I can't imagine a nature-
>oriented shamanistic viewpoint meshing well with a harsh Yelmic view
>of the world.
Of course they tend to be primtive, Shamanism implies a primitive culture - -- the inter-relation between the ancestor spirit and deity is blurry because a primitive organisation isn't civilized enough to institute a priesthood. You cited Yelmic worship, IMHO in Dara Happa you have the huge priesthood full of bureaucracy and hierachy, and then you have the Pentans who worship the same gods but via shamans. IMO the shamans worship the gods just like spirits, as described in Horned Man entry in GoG. Shamans don't exist in Dara Happa because it was wiped out long ago by the influx of civilized Dara Happan worship.
> Why would a mystical, spiritual shaman
>wish to learn the harsh, monomaniacal fanaticism of Faith of an
>Atheist / Monotheist sorcerer or the rigid heirarchies of many cults?
Ask a troll. They'll tell you that "I want to learn sorcery because it is the art of Arkat Kingtroll who is the holiest troll and through his teachings my tribe will will become powerful and great. I wish to join the cult of Subere so that I can raise the mightiest powers of the Underworld and speak to the spirits that my shaman powers fail me with, as a shaman I cannot venture into the underworld without great danger -- and so will use Subere's powers to aid me. My sister wishes to join Daka Fal because she is a Xiola Umbar priestess and that cult will aid her in walking the paths of the dead." This is, of course, assuming the troll hasn't eaten you by this point :)
>A shaman sees the world, surely, as a balance between many spirits...
>Having bent your brain into one mould how can you snap it into
>another?
Illumination? But then I suppose that's the exception. Anyway, the cultures I have described would share the same myths, grow up in the same culture etc... The argument was never "Why can't a shaman join any cult or become a sorceror?" but was "Why can't a shaman join a cult that is appropiate to their culture, frex a Kolati shaman joining Storm Bull?"
>The 'horned man' is, I think, something like a collective unconcious
>which a shaman percieves as a personified entity on his / her
>final journey to become a shaman. They invariably meet the Bad Man
>on this journey and have to overcome them, ie their own dark side,
>before understanding themselves and awakening their fetch.
Bravo. *This* should be included in the new RQ. However, how do you explain pre-Bad Man (in other words from a time before the Darkness) era? Perhaps all shamans were born perfect? Hmm, there could be an intresting story in this....
Nils:
>The Horned Man (or whatever his name is in a specific culture) isn't a
>god to be worshipped. He is the first shaman. The first person to set
>out on the shaman's path. He is still out there in the Otherworld,
>acting as an assistant teacher for the next generation of shamans, and
>the next...
I think this is partly the point of my argument -- the Horned man changes by culture, and therefore the Horned Man does not exist in any single culture. But I did forget that the Horned Man was supposed to be the first shaman.
>You forgot one important one: the Hsunchen.
Nobodies perfect :)
Nick E.
- -------------------------------------------------Nick the Shaman of Thed
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