Re: Shamans vs. Wizards vs. the East Isles

From: Sandy Petersen <sandyp_at_idgecko.idsoftware.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 96 22:05:16 -0500


Joerg
>I know that I tried to run each of a shaman apprentice and a
>beginning shaman against spirits, and an experienced sorcerer. Only
>the latter ever stood a slight chance.

        Try a sorcerer apprentice and see how he does compared to the beginning shaman. Then try an experienced shaman.

> 1) Any reasonable spirit (i.e., a POW of 10+) has a 95%

>chance of resisting a 1-point Dominate.
>with a multispelled Dominate 1 the statistical chance is a lot
>better than the linear chance you calculated. Already after five
>tries your wizard has a 22% chance to have succeeded at least once,
>>which is enough, and by far quicker than to beat it down to zero
>MP.

        You are doing a rather peculiar thing with your multispell. In any case, it violates the rules and their spirit (I admit you recognize this, stating it's a powergame ploy). I have always played that when multiple attack spells were hurled by the same caster at the same target, only a single d100 roll is made for resistance. If the target resists, none of the spells take effect. Otherwise, they all do. Hence Multispelling a Dominate is pointless unless you have multiple targets. You may argue that my rules interpretation is bad, or wrong, or quirky, but it's been working fine for 18 years, and bypasses a great number of little minimaxing tricks.

        So if it takes 14 tries to overcome the spirit, AND you have to succeed at a Concentration roll every single round, your odds blow fat toads. Long before you've taken over the spirit, you're possessed.

        You have also assumed that the spirit casts no spells of its own. Even if we limit it to spirit magic, a simple Demoralize prevents the sorcerer from casting Dominate again in that fight.

There are some other special handicaps re: sorcerers and spirits. A rather obvious one is that the sorcerer needs a separate Dominate spell for each group of spirits. The shaman does not. If the "wrong" kind of spirit attacks a sorcerer, he's sunk.

I mentioned that a Neutralize Magic can be used to KO a Protective Circle. Joerg responds
> Neutralize Magic has about the same chance to succeed as has the
>Dominate.

        Not if it is cast at a higher intensity than the Dominate, or the Circle's strength is weaker than the spirit's.

>The spirit will be hard put to produce a Dispel Magic 16, really.

        Why can't a spirit in sorcerous countries know sorcery? I suspect it's more common than spirit magic for Western spirits.

I pointed out that the spirit could just fly away from the Protective Circled sorcerer. Joerg gloats ;) that

>Wandering away is about the desired effect, isn't it?

        No. Making the spirit go away _permanently_ is the desired effect. If all it does is retreat out of sight of your Dominate until the Circle wears off, you've accomplished nothing but the waste of some good MPs. Once you leave, the spirit will return to haunting its house. And a spirit moves very quickly indeed.

>Ok, it is impossible to Dominate a possessed individual. But it is
>possible to Dominate a spirit to attack the possessing spirit, let
>it win spirit combat thanks to its Spirit Resistance and take over,
>and then order it to leave the body.

        This doesn't work on a covertly-possessing spirit. If you send a spirit against the victim, it will just attack the victim. If the spirit you sent is another covert spirit, it will possess him too, alongside the unwelcome former tenant.

I said that the Malkioni's worst foes have always been shamanistic cultures. In response Joerg writes an enormously long post from the Book of Kings, written before Greg even knew there _were_ Hsunchen in Glorantha, and which has nothing to do with whether the Basmoli were shamanistic or not. The fact that they worshiped gods is immaterial in this regard.

Joerg asks
>I'm also still puzzled where the Haragalans get their divine sun
>magics.

        There is a society of magicians who have mastered this magic. It is not a religious group, but a philosophical one.

>Do the larger of the East Isles (like Haragala or Mokato) have more
>than one deity?

        Some East Isles have more than one deity, but the number of deities is not related to the island's size. In a sense, _all_ the islands have more than one deity, because in addition to their Island deity, there are other gods -- the in-betweeners -- who can be worshiped. Also the higher gods (above their local god(. Examples of In-betweeners are Brastalos, Dormal, etc. Examples of higher gods are Thella, the Invisible God, etc.

>I mean, both Mokato and Haragala are about as large as Sartar or
>Tarsh, geographically, and will likely be less uniform in cult and
>culture

        Except that the islands have far less foreign influence shaping their society. Tarsh is affected by Pelorians, Orlanthi, Tusk Riders, Grazelanders, Malkioni (Ethilrist), etc. That said, there is more than a single culture on Haragala, and the ruling god (there is only one) is worshiped in different ways.

>When did the Admiral come to importance? Did his office exist
>already before the Closing, or was it created when Dormal Opened the
>seas?

        It already existed, but his ships plied only the inner bay.

>Did they make a distinction between the sailors and the marines (and
>other warriors on board the Holy Country ships)?

        Yes, but they saved them both.

>do you say that after the Pharaoh's disappearance in 1616 and his
>failure to reappear by Sea Season 1617 was followed by a civil war
>not only in kingless Heortland, but all over Kethaela?

        There was a struggle for power after the Pharaoh's disappearance, and the Admiral sided with Lunar ambassadors vs. the rest of Kethaela. One effect of this was the appearance of the Kingdom of Jab.

>Still, the Wenelian mermen called the >Pharaoh and his ships to
>their aid in 1582 against Alatan (in the >first of a proud tradition
>of desastrous defeats of Holy Country >fleets).

        And this, added to the defeat by Harrek, doesn't strike you as rather sinister? That EVERY time the Holy Country fleet goes to battle it gets catastrophically sunk, even though it's supposedly trained and supported by merfolk? This tends to support my theory, do you not agree?

>>What would the Ludoch gain from this shift of alliances?
> What _have_ they gained? The wreck of the City of Wonders.
>>Well, Loon Island still disturbs the centre of the Mirrorsea Bay,

        But it no longer houses a powerful human city, nor do those annoying magic bridges bypass the sea.

>The elimination of the Holy Country's fleet.
>>Once again. This was the third major eradication of a Holy Country
>>fleet. the Pharaoh always commissioned new, and better, ships.

        But every time he had to spend time and money. If his fleets hadn't been destroyed they would have been even stronger, and he would have had more veteran sailors to man them with. These defeats weren't trivial, and they haven't been just shrugged off. I believe that if the Holy Country had managed to win those battles (or avoid them), it would be the pre-eminent sea nation today. Think of all the captains and sailors who'd be alive, and all the ships that would still be floating.

>Was this defeat that serious? Then how do the Capratis grain ships
>travel to and from Nochet?

>And are all fishing vessels and fish freighters (to carry local
>catches to the markets at Karse, Nochet, or Vizel to cater for
>inland customers) affected?

        Yes. They no longer have protection against pirates or sea monsters. The Pharaonic fleet is no longer there to patrol the inner waters and keep the sea-trolls and mermonsters down. Occasional lone pirate ships are a greater danger, and gradually become ever more so. And, of course, now no ship can travel except at the sufference of the Ludoch. Not that they've stopped any of them yet. But the mere knowledge that the Ludoch control the seas tends to make all shipfolk eager to please them.

>In my vision of the Holy Country, what was lost were the military
>vessels and semi-military galleys

        Joerg, what kind of pirates loot only warships and not merchant vessels? The wolf pirates plundered everything in the Mirrorsea.

>On a geographically related issue: what is the role of the sea
>trolls off the shore of the Holy Country?

        They are primitive monsters, rather like cave trolls. They do not affect underwater politics except as a local threat to citizens.

>Why do the Ludoch and Ouori habitats overlap in the Seshnegi Isles
>when it is stated elsewhere that Ludoch and Ouori have not had
>contact for centuries? Misinformed sources?)

        The Ludoch of Kethaela and parts east haven't met any Ouori.

>And where do the murthdryami fit into the offshore politics?

        The murthoi keep to themselves and their submarine forests. They are more of a natural resource than a separate political group. If you have a kelp forest in your submarine queendom, then you try to keep the murthoi happy and take advantage of their friendship in a myriad ways.

Remember that the Ludoch, Ouori, Malasp, and Zabdamar are not so much like competing human kingdoms as like competing different species. There is as much difference between a Ludoch and a Malasp as there is between a dwarf and an elf.

Sandy P.


End of Glorantha Digest V3 #164


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