For what it's worth, I'm continuing this discussion NOT in order to prove to Joerg the error of his ways, but also because I think it is interesting and useful (at least to me) to hammer out whether a shaman actually _is_ better than a sorcerer at handling spirits. Joerg has usefully taken the Devil's Advocate position.
Joerg
>If a spirit attacks a non-discorporate shaman, he can use his fetch,
>but otherwise the shaman has the same problems as the sorcerer - he
>cannot take the initiative, and if he wins the spirit combat, or the
>spirit breaks off combat and flees, he needs either to discorporate,
>or remain as inactive as the sorcerer.
To address these points.
Haragalans divine sun magics:
> There is a society of magicians who have mastered this magic.
>It is not a religious group, but a philosophical one.
>>That's interesting. Do you know more about them?
Okay. In addition to the fact that they're just plain good ships, Haragalan tallships have two unique features. First off, Lumavoxoran`s magic can be extended to Haragalan ships if a bowl of liquid from the god`s temple pool is, with the proper rituals, kept on board. This was discovered only a few decades ago, and appears to be unique to Haragala, at the moment.
Second, most tallships have a sunscope mounted atop their rear tower. This device focuses sunbeams rather like a gigantic mirror (but magic, of course). It takes skillful sailing and aiming to keep your ship and the sunscope both pointed directly at the target for a long time. The longer you can hold the sunscope on the target, the more it can do -- even a brief glisten can dazzle crewmembers (with luck, the steersman). A longer exposure can heat up the ship, or cause its sails to catch fire. Finally, the wood itself can burst into flame. Supposedly if it's held on the water long enough, it can make the water boil.
Nils and Greg Fried (I believe) tend towards a belief that the specialists who operate the sunscopes are priests. I believe that they are adherents to a special society: the Sun Seers.
Haragalan society is governed by the Captains. In theory, every Captain (who owns his own ship) gets a vote. In practice, some Captains are more equal than others. Of course, for a talented individual who can't inherit or buy a vessel, ambitions are necessarily limited. Membership in the Sun Seers is an alternative way for at least magically-skilled outsiders to gain wealth and importance. Of course, only native-born Haragalans need apply, and not all of them. One of the ways the Sun Seers keep themselves important is by restricting membership to only the very best-qualified.
Me
> There was a struggle for power after the Pharaoh's disappearance
Joerg
>Precious little has been published about this.
It was all gamed out, just as was the Sartar High Council. I did not participate in the game, but as I recall at one point it was all five vs. the Admiral (played by Yurek Chodak).
>I suppose that the first reaction was to call for a Tournament of
>the Masters of Luck and Death
This civil war was, in effect, a kind of MOLADS tourney.
>But did the other Sixths have any realistic candidate to unify all
>the Sixths?
"realistic"? They had Richard the Tigerhearted, the Admiral, several competing Esrolian matriarchs, the Littlest Only Old One, Gemborg's champion, and at least one Lunar imposter? If they'd been able to unite behind one of them, they might have been able to get somewhere, I suppose. But none of them really sound like future Pharaoh material, do they?
I mentioned that this civil strife and the Lunar influence caused the Kingdom of Jab.
>Wasn't this the consequence of Richard the Tigerhearted's ignorance
>of the importance of the Footprint defense measures?f
Yes, certainly. The Kingdom of Jab, like most Gloranthan (and real-world) catastrophes, had multiple antecedents. One way to look at it is like this: If Richard hadn't weakened the Storm Bull cult (which was a hotbed of Heortling resistance to his regime), then the scorpion folk would not have been able to organize. But they still needed the vulnerability of the humans via civil strife and the stimulus of Lunar aid in order to trigger their onslaught.
If Richard had kept suppressing the Footprint, then the Queendom would not have been able to seize its opportunity when the countryside erupted. It would not have been there. On the other hand, if the Lunars and civil war hadn't occurred, the Queendom may have been forced to bide its time, or when it _did_ invade, it would have done far less harm, because the humans could have responded to the outbreak in an organized manner much more swiftly.
Of course, I suppose we could blame the Storm Bulls for wasting their time resisting Richard instead of keeping up their anti-chaos duties. And in my heart of hearts, I can't help but feel that the scorpion folk are at least a _little_ at fault here. ;)
>What is the Ludoch position to the cult of Dormal?
Officially, the Rightarm Island Ludoch are friendly to it. Cynically, if there were no ships at all, the Ludoch would have less opportunity to meddle with surface life.
>Would they support the Waertagi in their campaign to eradicate the
>cult?
Dunno. They haven't yet. Maybe because there are so few Waertagi, and those that are around have not yet tried to eradicate the Dormal boats, either because they are too busy looking for other things, or because the Dormal shipping is too vast. Note that it is possible that the Waertagi aren't anti-Dormal at all. The fact that they are apt to attack Dormal-type boats is probably the result of the fact that they are apt to attack _anyone_. And Dormal's ships are among the most common.
> If so, why should they prefer a Waertagi domination on the seas?
Because they're kin.
>The money spent [on new fleets] was actually beneficial to the Holy
>Country:
Possibly so, but he could have spent the same amount of money on ships even if he'd still _had_ his previous fleet. The Holy Country has no shortage of sailors. Then instead of rebuilding one fleet over and over, he could have had three separate fleets.
>If his fleets hadn't been destroyed he would have had more veteran
sailors to man them >with.
>>So the 1616 defeat was the only one which had mermen carrying the
>>sailors ashore?
No sailors were carried ashore from the defeat in Kralorela. Generally speaking, the Ludoch could only save Holy Country sailors when they got sunk reasonably close to the Holy Country. And of course sailors get killed in battles by means other than drowning. And even the mermen couldn't save them all. Certainly the Holy Country took fewer losses among its losing sailors than an enemy fleet would have done. I bet nearly every Wolf Pirate who fell overboard in their great victory was pulled down and drowned by mermen, undines, etc. In at least one of the Holy Country battles in its own waters (can't remember which one), sea-trolls are known to have thronged the waters and fought the mermen for possession of the sailors.
>>And, of course, now no ship can travel except at the sufference of
>>the Ludoch.
>That hasn't really changed, has it?
Yes. Because before it was the "Admiral and his Ludoch minions", whereas now it is the "Ludoch and their human allies."
>IMO, the Ludoch have lost in this game. The Holy Country fleet was
>manned mainly with Islander fisherfolk, whereas the replacements
> have less respect than
You just aren't taking the long view of things. Pain must come before the baby. The people who are suffering most from the lack of a fleet aren't the Islanders -- it's the protein-starved and isolated cities of Esrolia, Heortland, and Caladraland. It's now much harder to get a message from one part of Kethaela to another. All the Sixths are becoming more paranoid. No doubt soon it will be time to introduce a new Unifier, and all will be ready to receive Her.
>Do sea trolls have contacts or even an allegiance to the Shadow
>Plateau?
Not as a group. Perhaps individuals or single families. There is no overarching organization of sea trolls.
Sandy P.
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #167
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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