Pete:
>Well I hate to break it to you but even the Orlanthi believe in the
>concept of linear time before the Dawn.
>
>Consider the following quotes (all from KoS) of godtime events.
>
>p57 The First Ring 'One day some of them were talking about how none
>of them had ever eaten any Imperial Gazallet...'
Your grievance here would be the disscussion of days, and of events in time. My reply would be simply that the storytellers later put these concepts in because it just made more sense. Imagine the shaman beginning the bedtime tale as "One indetermined point in conterminous space time, some of them were talking about how none of them..." :)
>And that should be enough methinks. People may wonder what
>exactly caused Night and Day in the Old Days as Yelm did not
>set. IMO the Sun regularly travelled in the heavens between
>two points and then completed the circuit on the other side
>of the heavens. The night was not dark as it is now but more
>like a twilight.
Off the subject discussion: didn't someone once mention that a day was the time it took Yelm to travel to all of his four palaces, each of which were at the four corners of the earth i.e. the sun travelled horizontally rather than vertically.
>But what if we choose as a reference macroscopic pheomena that is
>visible of both sides of glorantha? Like for example the periods
>of the planets? If culture A determines that Planet X had a period
>of y days, then what would culture B determine the period to be?
>Given that these planetray cycles continue to the Dawn and beyond,
>do these periods change at the Dawn?
Then Culture A would say it had gone through 30 turnings, and Culture B
would say 50 turnings if two members of their culture ever met, and if at
another time they met then it might appear to be 20 turnings and 140
turnings. If the planet was a god and you talked to it, then it would have a
completley different story to tell. I'm saying that the Orlanthi version of
Godtime IGNORES time, completeley. Utterly. Causality and common sense are
ditched in favour of powerful myths and, in turn, strong shadows on the
HeroPlane.
When the Dawn came and the world was unified, the turnings became unform.
>> What also seems quite odd to me is the exact amount of years that passed in
>>pre-Compromise Glorantha according to GRoY. Why is it always in orders of
>>10,000 years etc...?
>
>Because Plentonius loved the number 10. He dedicates his calender to
>it. Have a look at some of the Indian chronologies and compare them
>to the history of the world. Pretty numbers and not much else. Also
>note that Plentonius's calender falls down because it does not predict
>the Sunstop.
Which would seem to imply (to me at least) that Plentonius made it all up, and retroactively applied time to Godtime. Ergo, IMVVVVHO I am correct.
Lewis writes of an answer to my paradox:
>The suposed paradox WRT to Chalana Arroy & SB & the Devil
>is the result of misinformed scholars who have confused Wakboth
>(the Devil in the Storm Bull story who is merely trapped under
>the Block and not dead, therefore never went to Hell!) with Kajabor,
>Entropy, God-Killer. Because Time was formed from Kajabor we
>automatically age, we forget things and generally things get worn
>out with use (rather than slowly getting more fit for the purpose).
As I said, I had a few answers which didn't totally satisfy me. This is one of them. I'd better admit it now, I completley believe in the Lunar ideals that all myths, even ones that conflict, are equally true and relative to the Cosmos as a whole. Therefore, since the Orlanthi name Wakboth and Kajabor as the poor, unfortunate victim of Urox, then I believe that any GL theory to fully unify the events of Godtime is bound to fail.
Chris Lemens:
> I like Nick Thed-Shaman's generalization of a race being so involved with
their
>gods (and hence in the gods' plane, which is not bound by Time), that they
>never noticed the advent of Time.
It was not that they did not notice the *advent* of time, it was always there. They just plainly didn't care.
> My point was that Zzabur et alia were measuring causality, not Time, and
subsequently >were misinterpreted to have been measuring Time.
Zzabur can try to measure causality, but it'd be Zzabur's version. Other peoples versions would be just as correct, but wouldn't tally with the Brithini version.
>Peter asks why someone measuring the turnings of an hour glass would call it
>something other than Time. Simply because Time did not yet exist.
Precisely.
>Nick seems to agree with some of what I said, but not the rest (typical of a
>Thed-Shaman). He challenges me to explain how Chalana Arroy, who was in
>Hell awaiting the coming of the Devil after he was killed by Urox, was also
>on the surface healing Urox after his battle with the Devil. Simple.
> First, you have to remove the words "after" from your challenge because
>they are temporal concepts that do not apply. Then trace the lines of
>causality. Because she's a healer, she heals Urox. Because she's a light
>bringer, she's in Hell.
Now, that's an answer I'll accept!! Ergo, time/Time is violated, but in a world with little causality it works just fine.
>I see nothing contrary with my statement that hunger, fatigue, death, etc.
>were effects in Nick's objection that their causes were the invocation of
>Death, attacks by malign spirits, or the exhaustion of the soul.
Sorry, my misinterpretation.
Cheers, David on the Red Masks info, and remember this is all IMHO,
Nick E.
- -------------------------------------------------Nick the Shaman of Thed
- ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
Powered by hypermail