Time Responses

From: Saravan Peacock <saravan_at_perth.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:42:46 +0800


From a little while ago:

>Why must we assume that simply because Plentonius was
>a sexist twit writing a history of the world to glorify his employer,
>he's wrong on all accounts?

Right on Pam!

More recently:

 Nick E. writes:

>people seem to

be ignoring my statement that these are not my own, personal, set-in-stone POV but what I would consider a rational set of ideas from the Gloranthan cultures.

Yeah, that seems to be going around a bit... A lot of the ideas I posted were just that - ideas. I'm personally in favour of a couple of different views on the issue. But hey, in the meantime, I'll argue for whichever strikes my fancy at the time...

>Pete M.:

>>I'm saying that the Orlanthi version of
>>Godtime IGNORES time, completeley. Utterly.
>
>Wrong. What were those KoS fragments that I just quoted at you?

>The Orlanthi myths are able to survive without time
being mentioned at all. Therefore odd things such as Vinga rescuing Elmal at the HoG after becoming a warrior madien, even though Orlanth had not left his stead to go on the LBQ and therefore, since Vinga only became a member of his Ring after he left it could not occur. QED.

Ahhh... now I understand what you've been getting at. Perhaps like Peter, I assumed that by "Orlanthi version of time" you meant the version of time expressed by Orlanthi _people_ (in all time periods including especcially the Third Age), not that experience undergone by Pre-Dawn gods and maybe their peoples.

Nevertheless, with this useful corrective, I would be happy to take up the bat for the Orlanthi once more, and suggest again that of course they had an understanding of logical sequences, if not of 'time' as it is understood in the third age. I think we've distinguished sufficiently between time and logical/ 'cause and effect' sequences. What follows is a crtique of the idea that 'Orlanthi' do not perceive logical sequences in the pre-Dawn mythology, as it seems from your posts Nick that you have conflated the two issues. (Whether or not they experienced 'time' in terms of days and nights or seasons is far less important than this bit - though it is an interesting one nevertheless.)

 All the examples Peter quoted from KoS are understood in a framework of GodTime events. Whether or not there were measurements in days, seasons, turnings of the Red Sands etc., the Orlanthi throughout history, even Pre-Dawn I would suggest, understood that _before_ Umath there was no storm (probably). Life was different _after_ Umath tore apart the earth and the air. Orlanth decided to kill Yelm _after_ a series of contests. Chaos came into the world _after_ a period of good rule by their mighty storm king. _Because_ of the entry of chaos Orlanth had to go on the LBQ. _After_ it succeeded things were different. This perhaps only applies to the major myths about which there is little dispute among Orlanth worshippers lozenge-wide. The Vinga myths are minor and quite varied across the lozenge (IMO) and have not yet been set down for the public even by that mighty sage Greg Stafford (AFAIK). In any case it is almost certain that any third age priest worth his salt is going to have a very coherent sense of the order of events in GodTime which his society recognises. He visits them at every Holy Day after all. I don't think mixing up different myths of a minor deity like Vinga from different parts of the lozenge is a very good example of myth inconsistency with regard to time or logical sequences.* But then again, inconsistencies (and there are some - eg Elaml/Yelmalio - depending on where you are) cause some of the best schisms and groovy conflicts available.

I think it extremely probable that all Orlanth followers (even in the God Time) understood these events to be progressing in some logical order. It did not _happen all at once_, whatever that might mean to a Gloranthan, or in a vacuum of meaning where 'events' took place in an unrelated fashion.

>The God Plane is the place where myths happen. So time works just like in
>myths: inconsistently if at all.
>
>Apparent order is in the eye of the beholder not in the myth.

>Exactly. At least someone has managed to understand what the Orlanthi believe.

" Order in the eye of the beholder" ?

I would think that the Orlanthi would consider such a view _very_ dangerous. Sounds like Lunar double-speak to us hill folk. We know what we know, and anyone who says different is deluded, a liar, or a chaos-traitor.

Happy to be corrected

Saravan

*Unless of course you mean that the myths told by different peoples tell different things about the GodTime. Which I wholly agree with. But that is getting into something like what David Cake and others are talkng about with regard to Gods being anthropomorphisations of their people, God Learners screwing up the identities of deities, natural Powers and all that stuff... My view is something like this:"Somewhere they have a belief in and understanding of a deity called Vinga. Somewhere else they have a belief in a deity that looks a bit like Vinga and is called a similar name. She did different things , though, at different 'times'(in a different order)." Are the two Vingas the same being (or aspects thereof) or ....? Anyway I'm glad the discussion is headed this way, because my understanding of these natures is very hazy...


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