>These things occured during the Godtime. We have people aging and dying.
>We have days, nights and hunting seasons.
I don't believe the Orlanthi would agree with people aging. As I've said before, IMHO the aging of a being in Godtime could be directly relative to how weary they are of life instead of how many years they have spent alive. Hunting seasons, seasonal weather changes etc... can easily be put down to which god is in control of the area at that time. Frex, a hunting season would be when Odalya has managed to wrestle control from the animal spirits (well, maybe not wrestle control -- I'd imagine a Hunter god to be more in favour of the balance of nature, but this is besides the point). Winter would be when Valind invades etc....
>But these things occur now. Yelm stops in the Sky. Tanian creates
>the sea of flame. A rogue planet interposes itself between the Red
>Moon and the Battle of Dwernapple. Zistor invades Esrolia. Waha
>sacks Robcradle. Orlanth defeats Kargzant. Wachaza sends Magasta
>to the Underworld. Orlanth and Arangorf dance the Perfect Dance.
But these are all breaches of time, most probabley the result of
HeroQuesting, which is the only way to cheat the Compromise. Yelm only
stopped in the sky when Nysalor was born, the rogue planet might easily be a
result of Argrath's HQ at some point, Zistor is obviously the result of GL
heroquesting. I can't comment on the others as I don't know enough about
them (when did Wachaza send Magasta to the underworld and why? This sounds
like an intresting tale I should learn)
I would say that these are the exceptions that prove the rule.
[about KoS fragments]
>But the fragments are still the beliefs of the Orlanthi. Thus your
>statement is wrong.
Good point. But I believe that if you ask the Orlanthi godi if time existed before Time, and then plagued him with paradoxes *like* the CA paradox, then they would happily admit that time was more of a storytelling aid than anything to worry about.
>Your hypothesis that the Orlanthi statements have been contaminated
>by an exposure to time to insert timely markers in their mythology
>is unproven and doubtful.
Innocent till proven guilty. Assume for a minute that every source we've had upto now, admitting GRoY, tFS, the Entekosiad and Trollpak, are all Orlanthi perspectives. Look at WF in the Gods and Goddesses section where it *specifically states* time does not exist and all actions were taken simultaneously in Godtime. I'm not saying the Orlanthi are right, just that they do actually believe in the non-existence of Time.
>Look at the mention of the Godtime genealogies in KoS -
I think you're talking about the stuff on p.74 -- and I think you're specifically talking about the line which reads that Orlanthi descended to his people at dawn after spending the night in away. I think this is reference to Orlanth on the LBQ (spending the night away) and his return just *before* the dawn to heal his people and make them Just. I could be wrong.
>..Grey Sage invented a Vingkotling genealogy and inserted the references
>so as to make the myths more comprehensible to the Orlanthi?
I never said people weren't born in the Godtime. Genealogies like those of the Vingkotling are abound in Orlanthi myth, but yes, the reference to any time related event may well have been inserted.
>Does the Invisible God tell his worshippers that he's bound by the
>compromise?
The IG never demonstrated any intrest in the Cosmos before the Compromise, and so I never see why he should afterwards. Maybe he doesn't care? Maybe he is bound by a super-compromise that only the Spider Woman understands? Maybe he doesn't exist?
> It's like saying
>that Tolat knows of the City of Alkoth where he is worshipped but
>hides this fact from the Amazons of Trowjang.
Maybe they've just never asked him about it. It's not as if he's going to volunteer heretical information like that.
>The appearance of an divine intellect which one can talk to is an
>artifact of the worshippers IMO.
Atheist!!! :)
Philip Hibbs:
>So what keeps the Chaos Gods within the Compromise?
The Chaos Gods aren't in the Compromise. They are outside of it, that's why they have limited Divine Intervention, almost never have access to all common divine magic and generally less resemble the "normal" cults found in GoG.
Saravan Peacock:
>Ahhh... now I understand what you've been getting at. Perhaps like Peter, I
>assumed that by "Orlanthi version of time" you meant the version of time
>expressed by Orlanthi _people_ (in all time periods including especcially
>the Third Age), not that experience undergone by Pre-Dawn gods and maybe
>their peoples.
Sorry, i thought this was obvious -- I just have no intrest in pre-Dawn Orlanthi, mainly because I never intend to play them or utilize them IMG. To me, only what the "modern day" 1621 ST Orlanthi matter, since this is where I play most (well, all) of my games.
> Life was different _after_ Umath tore apart the earth and the
>air. Orlanth decided to kill Yelm _after_ a series of contests.
All of these major events are clearly understood by the Orlanthi. AN Orlanthi would never tell you that Orlanth killed Yelm before Umath tore the Earth apart. Perhaps what I've been saying has been misunderstood. The Orlanthi ignore Time, and use it or ignore it as they see fit in their myths. Therefore, odd things like Vinga/HoG occur.
> The Vinga myths are minor and quite varied across the lozenge
>(IMO) and have not yet been set down for the public even by that mighty
>sage Greg Stafford (AFAIK). In any case it is almost certain that any third
>age priest worth his salt is going to have a very coherent sense of the
>order of events in GodTime which his society recognises
Yes, that's it!! It's the minor points that the Orlanthi can't handle with proper logic. The Big Picture is logical, but people who investigate too much, and start nit-picking, start finding loop-holes and paradoxes. While this may be due to the slow decay of storytelling throughout the ages, and GL meddling mucking it all up, I feel that I'm right in saying that Orlanthi mythology isn't altogether logical.
>" Order in the eye of the beholder" ?
>
>I would think that the Orlanthi would consider such a view _very_
>dangerous. Sounds like Lunar double-speak to us hill folk
I've already confessed to being influenced by Lunar philopsophy. Seriously, though, the statement I made was not intended to be respresentative of Orlanthi POV, but of my own possiblility. Sorry about being a bit too obscure.
>We know what we
>know, and anyone who says different is deluded, a liar, or a chaos-traitor.
I'm a broo shaman of Thed, what did you expect? Sermons on the mount? :)
David Cake:
[on free will of gods]
> When their priests do
>outrageous, heinous things, it is generally the actions of other
>worshippers not the god directly that strike them down. Take Lokaymadon,
>for an example. He performs heinous acts, which the Orlanthi has since
>recognised as terribly evil.
Illumination protected Lokaymadon from Orlanth's retribution.
All of this is, of course, once more not my opinion since I have none.
Thanku for listening,
Nick E.
- -------------------------------------------------Nick the Shaman of Thed
- ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #274
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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