Time

From: Saravan Peacock <saravan_at_perth.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:49:32 +0800


Getting way behind but plugging away nevertheless...

Simon Hibbs gives an example of confusing Orlanthi mythology:

>Stranger : "But surely your people must have existed during the Godtime.
>How else did they live? What did Orlanth change your way of life from
>to make it the way it is now?"
>
>Lawspeaker : "Orlanth showed us a way to live when life was nolonger
>possible, so therefore there was no 'other' way of life. We are Orlanthi,
>we have always been Orlanthi. If we were not Orlanthi, we would not be us.
>So you see, we Orlanthi have always lived like this."

I think this is a straw beast. IMG my Orlanthi believe the stave from GoG:

"Dead the world till Umath the Free broke the Sun's curse and moved the world. Umathsons and stalwart liegemen set the world in its present ways. Now all fell the world's winds at their backs."

Before the Storm Gods was a time of "never-ending eternity" when the sun gods kept everything in place according to their will. The Storm Gods realised that this was stagnation and introduced change. If you like, Umath gave life and later, when they realised that disorder was no better than absolute order, Orlanth gave laws to people. Orlanthi people do not believe that Orlanth "always was" or even that there have always been followers of Orlanth. Before the Storm Gods there were only disgruntled commoners who resented the authority of the Yelmic types. This was no other 'life' because such existence was not worthy of the title life which only became possible when some freedom was brought into the world.

Nick E. writes variously (sorry to pick on you Nick...):

>>But the concept of a genealogy itself is a timely event. There was
>>a time when X lived and a time before he lived. Ergo the Orlanthi
>>believe in time.
>
>I can't see how this proves the belief in linear time measured in years.
>Sure Orlanthi believe in the statement you said. They know there was a time
>when Orlanth lived, they know what he did, and they know there was a Cosmos
>without him at some point. They just don't measure it in years. Orlanth did
>not rule for ten thousand years, he ruled from the time he took the Throne
>from Yelmup until Chaos arrived.

They don't have to measure it in years or anything else to believe that there was an orderly (and perhaps measurable) sequence of events in the God Time. IMO most Sartarite hillfolk don't even measure events from five hundred years ago in such clearly defined ways. They say it happened long ago in the time of X king/hero/chieftain. They remember lines of genealogy and kinglists by heart, but I don't think they cover the exact number of years they reign or how old their great-great-great-great-grandmother's brother was when he killed the chaos demon over the hill. Just because they don't remember the number of years or seasons or whatever does not mean that they believe that there was no Time five hundred years ago. They would still think that "back then" they lived through days and nights and seasons and years. This quite possibly applies to their view of the GodTime as well.

>I don't think we've been gregged at all, we just know that the Dara
>Happans, and many other cultures, believe in Time whereas the Orlanthi
>don't. The Entekosiad is most defintely not Orlanthi POV and is not part of
>this debate, as I see it.

How do we know the Orlanthi don't believe in Time (I presume you mean pre-Dawn Time)? As far as I'm aware, no one has yet suggested any very comprehensive evidence of this (other than suggestions that it was not _necessarily_ present). They have been limited to attacking the mass of evidence (second hand though it may be) provided by Peter M., myself and several other people, that of course they believe in Time, or at the very least logical sequencing (which are not exactly the same thing) before the Dawn. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't think that the Orlanthi in the Third Age believe in Time/Logical Action Sequences before the Dawn." But I think there is vehement disagreement about this, so to say "We know this to be true" is absurd.

As a comment on this part of the debate, so far, I think it no longer looks like it is getting anywhere. The views seem to be polarised, and I can detect no sense of feeling for common ground or understanding. But then I could be quite wrong. I confess to being bewildered by the repeated statements that Orlanthi don't believe in time. I can only think that those people arguing this view have a completely different idea from the one that I am getting from their posts. A good option for me would be to clarify which Orlanthi each of us is talking about, and what concept of "time" each of us is talking about. I think this would indicate that many of us are actually talking about different concepts, and arguing at cross purposes as they intermingle.

Pax

Saravan.


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