I said:
>Why do any of these deities have to tell their worshippers anything? It
>ain't a lie 'til it's denied.
Peter Metcalfe said:
>I faintly recall a Divination spell in da roolz. I've never heard
>of any plausible suggestion as to why a god would lie to his worshippers
>(unless he was the Trickster).
As I said it's not a lie unless it's denied. As far as I can tell you're working from the following assumptions:
Wrong-people are generally unquestionning and submissive-they believe what authority figures tell them. You don't get far in a hierarchy by questioning its beliefs, especially sacred beliefs. There's no "reason" for good Yelmites to question what their religion believes. I'd be suprised if any Gloranthan religion outside of the Lunars and maybe the Lhankhor Mhys go much in for questioning fundamental beliefs. Even in the case of the Lunars I'll bet most of the questioning goes on behind closed doors-keeps the peasants happier. Ignorance is bliss. Must maintain the status quo you know.
2) The divination spell is a reliable way to get answers.
Yes, if it can be answered in seven words or an easily understandable dream. It's easy enough to figure out how to give a truthful answer yet phrase or form it that the poor sap who gets the dream. Remember Croesus of Lydia-If you attack the Persians a mighty empire will fall? Don't forget who's composing these answers.
I'm not proposing that the gods make a habit of lying to their followers. Keeping secrets and not telling everything they know isn't lying. Perhaps somewhere in Raibanth deep in a temple archives stamped "For High Priest's Eyes Only" is a document that admits Yelm does have some restrictions on what he can do. So what, it doesn't change the nature of their religion or their society. Societies have been based on lies before and this isn't even that big a lie.
Peter Metcalfe also said:
>You misunderstand. I'm not talking about the nature of these gods, I'm
>talking about the human perception of these gods. Yes, the Sun is a
>divine being in glorantha, but the fact is that several cultures all
>claim differing names for him (ie Ehilm, Yelm, Somash, Elmal, Yelmalio
>and the female sun goddess of Vorumain) and claim to be able to talk to
>a being of that name. What I am suggesting is that this divine intellect
>is largely a human construct in terms of trying to comprehend the God and
>that it varies from culture to culture. Y'know the story about the six
>blind men and the elephant?
Well that's different then isn't it?
Saravan Peacock said: (sorry about the long quote)
>Aha.. my own view is that everyone always has choice, but never Free
>Choice. As far as it applies to Gloranthan gods, I favour this view as
>well. I don't think that Gods sit back and wage a calculated war of numbers
>and attrition (whether magical or mundane) against their various foes,
>pulling swifties to get it past the attention of everyone else who is
>watching avidly. It's just got no atmosphere for me.
>The gods embody various features and personalities. Grossly oversimplified,
>you might say they are super-powerful forces of nature, which have a
>varying degree of human-like personality. Thus the Storm gods are gods of
>Storm, not just superheroes who happen to be able to control the weather to
>inflict damage on their foes. They _are_ the storm. They are violent,
>uncouth, boastful and (to an extent) lovable. As GodTime progressed,
>Umath's sons became more refined and developed more variant personalities
>which had 'more choice' in their actions, but still not 'free choice'.
I don't see how your second paragraph isn't compatible with the first. I agree that believing that the gods are nothing but a bunch of Byzantine nobles sitting up in heaven plotting and slipping fast ones on each other is boring BUT I still think there's an element of this going on that would be perceived by mortals as being just this mundane. The true nature of deities is probably beyond human comprehension.
Michael Raaterova said:
>Now, is this boring or is it merely dull? If the gods are so lobotomized
>that they can't even decide for themselves who deserves a spirit of
>reprisal and who deserves an intervention, nobody would worship gods - they
>would worship the priests and brown-nose with gusto to be taught spells and
>to avoid spirits of reprisal and excommunication. After all, the initiates
>know that the important figure isn't the god, but the priest, because *the
>priest* makes all the decisions. The god is merely an exploitable magic
>resource.
I agree that this sounds boring but I disagree on the effect puppet gods would have. The priests would still maintain the illusion that people are worshipping the gods because the gods could make outrageous demands on their followers that the priests wouldn't feel too free to make. Why would mortals worship other mortals. Even with real gods with some ability to impact the world a lot of secular power would still be in the priests' hands. To some people it's always going to look like the priests are pulling the strings.
Oliver D. Bernuetz
End of Glorantha Digest V3 #280
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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