I heartily agree with David, that in Gloranthan everyday practice our different viewpoints amount to just about the same thing. But that's not what i'm annoyed about. I'm not talking about how the religions work, i'm talking about how the *gods* work.
If the gods can't take independent action, then *mere mortals* are pulling the strings of creation, because they are the only ones who can make a decision about anything, and the puissant and awe-inspiring gods are nothing but power plants. I do not want my Glorantha that way.
About Orlanth, Harmast and Lokamayadon: my interpretation is that Orlanth knew very well what Lokamayadon was on about, but couldn't take any obvious action because the other gods would be watching. So instead he inspired Harmast to do it for him when he sent a divine messenger to Harmast bemoaning the evil ways of Lokamayadon. Which David could agree with, considering:
>And they [the gods] act through their heroes, who go to
>the heroplane and if they measure up to it gain more powers from the god
>and a consciousness more like the gods, and the hero goes and does his gods
>bidding because he must.
The philosophical implications of self-conscious gods with no free will are too hairsplitting that i don't want any truck with it. I find it much easier to believe that gods have free will. I want the gods to be on top of the world, pulling strings here and there and moving in mysterious ways, and not just mindless parts of the World Machine. So IMG the gods are on top.
>If 'Orlanth' knows you've done
>something wrong, why can't he just excommunicate you himself?
Because it's easier for Orlanth to send a vision to a priest and let him excommunicate the apostate.
> Here is a deep and subtle point which you have missed - lacking
>free will is not the same as lack of power and action. The gods have power.
>The gods can act. Indeed, they have to.
I in no way missed that point - i just can't envision gods as the equivalent of nuclear plants or batteries, which also lack free will but have power and have to act according to the laws of nature and the wants of men.
>I'm a Lunar, I think we are both right, its just your way
>of seeing is a little clouded. Its really two ways of saying the same
>thing. Gods who cannot act in new and unexpected ways are indistinguishable
>from Gods that never act in new and unexpected ways.
You really are a Lunar, twisting the argument like a greased eel. The difference between your and my gods is quite enormous to the gods themselves, but the results of that difference is inobvious to Jow Blow in Alone.
OTOH, Joe Blow knows that Orlanth is present in every wind and sees his wrath in every storm, his mercy and love in every spring rain. If Joe breaks Orlanth's laws, he knows he'll be on the receiving end of Orlanth's stick, but if he is honourable he'll be blessed.
Whose interpretation of the gods is closer to Joe's perceived reality?
RE: the Compromise
>>Why not instead start with the assumption that the Compromise is real
> Because I am not an Orlanthi. What is this 'Compromise' you speak off?
OK. I messed up. I do not mean that the Orlanthi Compromise myth is the objectively true accouint of what happened. What i meant with "the Compromise" is the obscure divine event that spawned the Orlanthi's Compromise myth.
*Something* happened on the divine level of existence around the Dawning, and this event is responsible for restricting the gods' freedom of action.
Furthermore, the Miller/ Metcalfe idea that the gods are mortals that apotheosized and became gods is useful, consistent and logical, and, unfortunately, not my cup of coffee at all. That some mortals have become gods is selbstklar, but to say that all gods have mortal origins is hogwash.
And finally, Pam uses the Ernalda option and then says:
> To Gloranthans, the gods are
>real and powerful. If they dissapoint their gods, the gods will starve
>their families, desert them in combat, or leave them to the mercy of the
>wild spirits. But sometimes terrible or unusual things happen anyway,
>and then you have a mystery.
Let's leave the argument at that. We're all here to make Glorantha a better game world. We won't generate MGF by pounding each other with our subjective preferences about the intricacies of Gloranthan cosmology.
See, David - your attempt to enlighten me wasn't wholly fruitless.
And that's all i have to say about that. Anyone who wants to discuss further cosmology with me has to do it off-Digest.
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