Time: a solution?

From: Lewis Jardine <jardine_at_rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 13:06:31 +0000


Hi All

        Perhaps I can now offer a solution to this long running and rather polarised debate.

>
> Me:
> The Dawn is straight after the Great Compromise and is taken as the
> start of ST (and the end of GodTime).
>
> From: "Paul Stolar" <pstolar_at_mail.xetel.com>
> There were several thousand generations between the compromise and the
> dawn, per trollpack.
>

        Yup, I remember it now you remind me. Now we've got ourselves into a real fix, or perhaps a bridge between the various POVs.
My view is that time starts after the Great Compromise (if you believe in it).
Thus the concept of generations of trolls living and dying on the surface is fine.
Life must have been very tough for Humans and especially Aldryami, no wonder we
have all those myths of Yelmalio. Also the Dara Happans have 110,000? years before
the Dawn and the start of ST (which agrees with the thousands of generations).

So my take is that before the Great Compromise there was "Not Time as we

know it, Jim". 
However, between then and the Dawn Time existed.  
However, before the Dawn myths were still being made (they still are)
and so
the concept of Time entered into mythology.

Thus those who say that there was no time before the Compromise are right.
And those who say that there the concept of time existed in Mythology are right.

>
> PM>> You have not disproven that effect erosion did not occur then. A
> >> simple example makes me think otherwise. People became hungry in
> >> the Old Days and ate to fill their bellies. The time taken for
> >> things to mature is another example (ie Erosion of Youth).
>
> Me>I am not convinced that this is relevant.
>

PM> You have not disproven hunger which was mentioned. Care to revise
> your opinion that the entire paragraph is not relevant?
>

Point taken (I was careless with my cut & paste).

Me:
> >I view maturing in a positive manner, the youth is gaining strength,
> >size, knowledge and wisdom. Thus the initial "aging" process is a
> >building process, the generally positive result of experience and
> >self development.
>

Peter:
> Change is change whether good or bad.
> Pop philosophy doesn't make it otherwise.
>

My statement still stands:
Change /= Time
Change is Mobility is part of Celestial Court.

> >Of course one might get injured or maimed during
> >this process but that would be the result of an event, not time.
>
> But this regrowing is still a _timely_ process. cf the regeneration
> of Harand Boardick after being burnt by the staff of Justice. Ergo
> time exists back then. Do you have *anything* to suggest otherwise?
>

Who mentioned regrowing? I didn't. I was more referencing the uncureable
wounds Gods suffered from and people can receive on HeroQuests. In fact the Seal Wound spell is such an example (it can only be cured by time) thus Gods who were injured by ZZ cannot regain their lost powers. I confess I haven't read GRAY & Ent. so I don't know who Harand Boardick is
but did he exist before the Compromise?

> >Is there any evidence ((correction) from an Orlanthi POV) that people



> >died of Old Age before the Dawn.
>
> There are plenty from the Entekosiad and the GRAY! I have quoted
> these time and time again (look at the end of Kestinoros's reign
> if you still want a reference).

My mistake (reference above) I should have remembered the large number of years
between the Compromise (the start of Time IMO) and the Dawn.

> I'm getting quite tired of having to repeat myself again and again.
> So before you see fit to nitpick, read King of Sartar and imagine what
> life must have been like. They weren't all gods then so it's difficult
> to see how humans could cope with no time.
>

You keep quoting rather than trying to solve the problem! Some of us (Orlanthi) believe in the Compromise, what we are trying to do
is find common ground with the Dara Happan POV expressed in GRAY & Ent. I accept my limited knowledge of KoS (when I read it (once quite a while ago)
most of it appeared to me to be temporal (post-Compromise). My recent mistake is to forget the large number of years between the Compromise and
the Dawn which allow for alot of the discrepancies between our POV.

>
>
> SP>> This quite possibly applies to their view of the GodTime as well
> >>[ie believ in days and nights in the godtime].
>

Me > >Not if they believe their mythology.
>

PM > And I heard a voice crying out in the wilderness 'But their mythology
> has days and nights in it!

Which part, before or after the Compromise?

> What were all those passages I quoted from KoS? Hallucinations?'
>

I think we have the fundamental problem of what people see as GodTime. I view it as before the Compromise, it appears that you view it as the totality of the Mythology (which I would call the HeroPlane). Of course the ideas of time have entered into Mythology with stories of peoples ancestors becoming prt of their myths. Also as HeroQuesters who have lived within Time perform Quests and return with their stories.
It would be exceptionally strange if they did not use temporal references
when they retold these stories to an audience of normal, temporal people.

>
> >Remember that Yelm going to Hell is the model for Days and Nights.
>
> Not necessarily. *Now* it is. *Then* the Storm Age Days and
> Nights may have been dependant on the Sky Dome or another
> celestial body, frex Entekos/'Black' Dendara.
>

Hey, Peter, you've proved your superior knowledge, but doesn't this sound a bit weak?
You accept this as their current Mythology, so if they believe their current Mythology then they cannot believe that there were "proper" days and nights in GodTime.

Finally, we must take into account the layered nature of Mythology. Every time people take part in a Ceremonial reenactment they are confirming
Mythology. They are also identifying themselves with it and thus they are
"contaminating" it with their POV. The assumptions of partakers about the
world are gradually encorporated into the rituals and thus into the myths.
Thus mythology is a dynamic subject which is only fixed when it is killed
by being written down! (cf Homer)

Thus we should expect even the earliest Myths to become contaminated by Time,
even if it did not exist then.

Cheers

        Lewis


End of Glorantha Digest V3 #283


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