>While I general I agree with Peter, I
>don't think that means all the Orlanthi see it his way.
No, just *all* Orlanthi see it my way.
Lewis Jardine:
>Change /= Time
Woohoo sophistry! What is Time then?
>I confess I haven't read GRAY & Ent. so I don't know who Harand Boardick
>is but did he exist before the Compromise?
Harand Boardick is in KoS (with respect to the Justice Staff and before the compromise. The birth of Umath where the 294 commoners are first mentioned is before the compromise. Thus I'm afraid you compromise theory about the compromise is completely and utterly compromised.
Me>> I'm getting quite tired of having to repeat myself again and again.
>You keep quoting rather than trying to solve the problem!
Of coure I *bloody* quote! That's where the evidence is, init?
>Some of us (Orlanthi) believe in the Compromise, what we are trying to
>do is find common ground with the Dara Happan POV expressed in GRAY &
>Ent.
I'm wondering if 'us' refers to you, Lewis Jardine, rather than Orlanthi in general. It would help if you actually read the works (KoS included) instead of trying to nitpick possible compromise theories about the nature of time proposed by several people (Cake, Simon Hibbs etc) in recent digests. Namely that the Compromise deals with the nature of gods rather than the absense of lineal time (there are other forms of time - cyclicial and illusory).
>>>Remember that Yelm going to Hell is the model for Days and Nights.
Me>> Not necessarily. *Now* it is.
>You accept this as their current Mythology,
>so if they believe their current Mythology then
>they cannot believe that there were "proper" days and nights in
>GodTime.
But if they believe their current mythology then they would believe that there *were* days and nights in the godtime. So what I said is what the Storm Voice would say when he is confronted by the contradiction between Yelm causing Days and Days/nights in the Storm Age. Clear?
Frank Rafaelsen:
>Ok, I agree with you that wolf form is a great survival advantage if
>this is how you see them. It's a matter of perception. I don't see
>then that way though. I think the telmori, being one of the most
>successfull hsunchen cultures ever on glorantha, must be a little
>smarter than that
Umm, I thought they're the most successful hsunchen culture *because* they are able to take were-form once every seven days. All the other Hsunchen cultures are dying out (Harrek has weakened the Rathori Way fatally although they don't know it yet) or living in the wop wops.
Tadaaki Kakegawa:
> Is cult of Murharzarm cult of Yelm Imperator (in GoG) , really ?
> If so, is cult of Shargah cult of Yelm the Warrior ?
> Is cult of Antirius Yelm the Elder (or variation of Yelmalio cult) ?
Murharzarm is the first Yelm Imperator but the secret was lost when he was killed by the Last Rebel (ie Orlanth). His cult station was discovered again at the Sunstop. Shargash is actually a different planet from Yelm. Some people think that the Yelm the Warrior was actually transferring some priests of Shargash to Yelm in an attempt to develop Yelm's martial aspect.
Antirius is actually one of the parts of Yelm. The Red Emperor like all the previous Emperors contain Antirius as proof of their divine right to rule. Thus the cult of Yelm worships the Emperor in their Antirian rites.
All of the above is what Solars themselves believe.
> I've thought cult of Yelm in GoG is cult of Kargzant.
> I'm very confused .....
The GoG Cult describes the basics of both Yelm and Kargzant with startling accuracy. Which is very strange since both believe the other to be a false and evil sun.
Bryan John Maloney:
>Y'know, I'm not at all interested in the "reality" of "time before
>Time". What I'm interested in are the "contextual answers" to the
>question of "time before Time".
>That is, when teenage Orlanthi asks the question, what's he or she told?
>Etc. for the other cultures.
ORLANTHI: Time is a consequence of Freedom. Freedom was given to
us by Umath. Before Umath, the world was dead, montonous, stale and unchanging. We could live forever, but it was a live of unending toil and misery. Then Umath came and gave us Freedom. Then we knew what it was like to be happy. Our greatest moment of Freedom occured when Orlanth killed the Grand Order. But when Orlanth was King, he found that change could be a vice at times when the Unholy Trio changed the Age of Freedom into the Age of Darkness. So Orlanth went into Hell to bring back the Grand Order. By the Great Compromise, the Grand Order was brought back to life and we call this period Time. So while we are not as free as we were in the Days of Freedom, we are freer than we were in the Age of Slavery and in the Age of Darkness. Furthermore by the Great Compromise, the Age of Slavery and the Age of Darkness will never happen again. This is the best of all possible worlds. Pangloss, a Grey Sage.
YELM: This would be the first era of the one:
'We know nothing of this, save for the bliss of the mystical movement. We are only small and miserable mortals, far removed from this. It is an era of harmony between One, Many and Being, when those distinctions did not exist' Plentonius
PELANDAN: The Provarian Era:
'We know nothing of the Provaria except some of these stories refer to it as a previous place or time, before the Wendarian Era began to recognize or classify things.... The Red Goddess has shown us that it was a time without consciousness, before everybody knew they were seperate from the world, or different from the immortal gods. Thus Provaria is the realm of Innocence, the realm of dreams, the realm of the gods. Said on the other side, it was a time of ignorance, poverty and obliviousness' Valare Addi
Saravan Peacock:
>My main problem with this is one of origins. What did Orlanth I believe?
>Did he worship anything and if so what? And did he have magical power from
>the 'gods' or forces of nature or whatever? In fact where did the world
>come from?
Orlanth would have worshipped the Storm IMO. Before there were humans or even Dragons (IMO) the great gods were. What I'm discussing is how the perception of gods as elemental forces (which still survives in the West) into anthromorphic forms came about.
Oliver Bernuetz:
Me>>Wrong. *Some* people will be inquisitive and questioning. There have
>>been philosophy minded people in just about every closed minded
>>religion you care to name. St Thomas Aquinas, William of Occam and
>>Ibn Rushd for starters. These people weren't outcasts but were actually
>>*listened* to by the authorities. They weren't all doupleplusgoodthinkful
>>bigbrotherluving proles in the middle ages.
>We're not talking about the Middle Ages here we're talking about the Dark
>Ages. Remember Socrates? Remember Galileo (if you want to drag the Middle
>Ages and the Renaissance in on this)? Of course there's always inquisitive
>and questioning people around. A lot of them are 1) dismissed as nutcases,
>2) ignored, 3) rubbed out by the authorities.
Ignorance is truely bliss. Socrates was condemned because his brand of philosophy had produced such fine athenians such as Critias and Acliabades. Aristophanes had done more to antagonize the establishment of Athens than Socrates ever did and yet lived to die at a ripe old age. If you don't know who the people I mentioned are then look it up and start reading before go making inane presumptions like Athens was a Fascist City in the Dark Ages or all authorities sought to clamp down on individual thought. And as for Galileo, what happened to his ideas?
>>>Societies have been based on lies before and this isn't even
>>>that big a lie.
Me>>Codswallop. It's quite a big one. I strongly dislike it because
>>in the 1500+ years of Dara Happan Society, *someone* is bound to
>>spill the beans that their imperial theology is based on the
>>gloranthan equivalent of the Donation of Constantine.
>Hah. Don't forget Goebbels(?) "No lie succeeds like a Big Lie." (Badly
>misquoted)
>1) Egypt-thousands of years of history-Pharoah is the living God.
>2) The Roman Empire 500 years or so of the Emperor as God.
>3) Over 1900 years of the Catholic Church-the Pope is God's right hand man.
>4) Any religion-there are gods.
Look up the distinction between beliefs based on material facts and beliefs based upon faith. You are trying to prove that the belief that Yelm Priests do not believe in the Compromise is false is like saying that the Jewish belief that the Jesus is not the Messiah is a lie (except for of course the elders of zion who have a little piece of paper showing that Jesus was divine as per your beliefs about the Yelm high priest). You are in effect appealing to somebody else's faithly belief (There is a Compromise) to show the first faithly belief (There is No Compromise) is a lie. Hereth endth your free clue.
>There probably were periods of dissent and cries of Yelm isn't almighty.
>Quickly followed by purges and shushing up of the whole business. Why on
>Glorantha would they write down that these sorts of events occurred?
Because they have. It's in the Fortunate Succession.
>As far as some people's tendencies to try and explain all Gloranthan
>activities, i.e. the origins of the gods, etc. in RW terms assuming that
>Glorantha works just like the RW this just makes me sad.
Fine. Just don't read the Entekosiad, it will break your heart.
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