Nature of Lies and Yelm/Lodril Genes

From: Peter Metcalfe <P.Metcalfe_at_student.canterbury.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:14:00 +1200


Oliver Bernuetz:

Me>>Ignorance is truely bliss. Socrates was condemned because his brand
>>of philosophy had produced such fine athenians such as Critias and
>>Acliabades. [...] If you don't know who the people I mentioned are
>>then look it up and start reading before go making inane presumptions
>>like Athens was a Fascist City in the Dark Ages or all authorities
>>sought to clamp down on individual thought. And as for Galileo, what
>>happened to his ideas?

>Thank you for the personal insults Peter, it's nice to know I've been
>matching wits with such a mature person. And please don't accuse me of
>being overly sensitive.

I stand by my remarks. And for wanting to match wits with a mature person, who then was the person who flamebaited recently by saying that any religion which says there are gods is based on a lie? You know you were really thoughtful and mature with that one.

>I guess my degree in history and my
>two years pre-masters work in Classics makes me too poorly read for
>you. I never said Athens was a fascist city.

I said 'presumptions' not 'statement' and my view comes from you offering the death of Socrates as an example of closemindedness in the dark ages. A mature person would have concluded from this a simple case of ignorance. OTOH I am suprised that one who has a history degree would seek to pass off historical urban legends in an attempt to bolster weak arguments.

>There's a big difference
>between being an influence in your own time and long after you've
>died. How much credence was Galileo given in his time? When did
>the Pope forgive him? Wasn't it earlier this year?

I'm talking about his _ideas_. The Pope at the time was all too accepting of his ideas but wanted them made PC so that they wouldn't threaten the authority of the church. Due to bureacratic snafus and university politics, this ended up with Galileo being silenced. Nevertheless, Galileo's observations were accepted by the majority of other _contemporary_ astronomers in europe. Hence you are still wrong.

>>You are in effect appealing to somebody else's
>>faithly belief (There is a Compromise) to show the first faithly
>>belief (There is No Compromise) is a lie. Hereth endth your free clue.

>Sigh. NO I AM NOT.

That's in marked contrast to the passage that originally sparked off this bugaboo:

        (Yes, I'm aware that the Dara Happans are said not to 
        acknowledge the Compromise at all but why would Yelm 
        want his worshippers to know he wasn't any better or 
        more powerful than the rest of the gods)?

You have danced around in simple sophistry by saying that lies are not lies until they are denied which obfuscate the fact that the behaviour is still deceitful by most people's standards.

>What I am saying is this. Any belief structure can be
>based and can operate on what are falsehoods. Maybe not to the
>belief in question but to a hypothetical impartial observer-could
>you find one.

But what if the belief is _unfasifiable_? Then we cannot say that it is a falsehood or not. Calling such beliefs lies is making a value judgement which is something that a hypothetical impartial observer is by definition incapable of doing.

>What I have been trying to say is that
>they're could very well be some elite or core within the faith that are
>aware of this fact. Fine, so what. Doesn't change a damn thing.

                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It does IMO. It changes the character of the religion in that the leaders *know* that their faith is a lie. Which is why I am against the idea.

Pam Carlson:


>Other impressions left on the Yelm cult
>& Dara Happa are the veneration of horses, a distinct set of genes
>(according to Greg at the SanFran con, Yelmies traditionally look
>different than the Lodrilli)

I wouldn't blame the genes on the Horse riders. Such differences were noted in Murharzarm's Day (Cf the Squareheads) before the Horse riders appeared. Some genetic intercourse has occured between the Yelmies and the Kargzantis since then but this has only excarbated the difference.

End of Glorantha Digest V3 #287


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