>On the whole, the argument is very good.
Thank you!
>...by saying "trolls are cruel" aren't we guilty of putting a Human bias on
>their actions? For example, if a troll slowly eats an elf, is he being
>cruel? As far as the troll's considered, an elf has about the status of RW
>broccoli.
*sigh*
OK. I'm guilty as charged. I'm human, and I'm not sure I can take myself out of that context enough to NOT have a human bias. But if you want to attempt to avoid such a bias, be my guest. The best thing may be for you to try to describe from a trollish point of view what it is like to slowly devour a living sentient being. Personally, I'm not sure I want to get into the mind of a troll that much. (Such sick and twisted human figures as the fictional Hannibel Lechter and the all-too-real Jeffrey Dahmer might give you an idea why I prefer not to go there for my entertainment.)
But even if you do that, you'll have to use human language to describe the trollish actions and thoughts. You'll have to use human words (unless you actually want to create the language of Darktongue and then teach it to everyone), which will carry implicit human meaning and which will be ascribed further meaning by the human listeners that will be your audience. So in the end, I'm not sure human bias can be avoided anyway.
Besides, there is a fine tradition in the official Chaosium stuff of labeling trolls such things as "callous," "brutal," and "crude" without much apparent worry.
I have been thinking further about how to describe the means by which the Uz seek to understand their Trickster, and I no longer believe it is "cruel."
I have been considering how the trolls, as a race, are described as "the Eaters" who are "preeminently devourers" in the world. Taking a bite of something and chewing it, especially for a race that doesn't particularly care whether the food is dead or not, is an inherently violent act. So, as comedy can grasp the essence of humanity, it is _violence_ that can grasp the essence of the Uz.
>IMO, humor _is_ important to the trolls. On the face of it, trollish
>society is "might makes right" to an extreme -- most of the insights we
>get in Trollpak imply that trollish relations are determined by power
>first, other interests second.
...
>But what's the release mechanism? Either every inter-troll conflict
>ends with the bloody elimination of the losers, or at some point the
>losers back off. I think humor plays a part in this. In terms of allowing
>the losers a mechanism to back down. Maybe that's one of the positive
>things Trickster does, facilitates this kind of trollish interaction. Any
>thoughts?
I don't think the trolls use humor as such a "release mechanism." For this to happen troll comedy would need to create social bonds, and I don't think it does. It is a HUMAN thing to feel closer to someone after sharing a laugh together at something comic. I think trollish laughter is a simple personal expression of enjoyment which does not have the same social effects it does for humans. What makes trolls feel closer to one another is to participate in a violent act together, during which they may laugh. A regular trollish pastime is pulling appendages off insects, which they then enjoy eating. And while they enjoy the eating, it is the pulling the wings off the flies TOGETHER that makes the trolls feel "chummy."
But even if I'm wrong and humor is used to moderate conflict, so what? Violence plays an important part in human interactions, but as a race we don't consider it to make us human. Instead we believe that it is comedy which says something important about the human condition. But trolls are non-human, and I think part of their inhumanity is that they consider violence to make them trolls.
>ZZ is _not_ a creator deity...
Of course he is!!
There is the story about Zorak Zoran and Karrg travelling together and coming across "something." (This "something" varies in different stories - a spiny caterpillar, an acid-slime covered slug, the first Helmet Beetle, etc.) Being hungry (as always), the two attack the "something" the way trolls had always done - with bare hands and teeth. Because of what the "something" is, they can't hurt it and possibly get hurt themselves in trying to hit and bite it. Karrg sits down and howls in frustration and anger. But Zorak Zoran gets so enraged that he does something no troll had ever done before - he picks up what until then had always been considered "food" - a rock, a stick, or a bone, depending on the story - and he hits the "something" with it until it was dead! After eating, Karrg (mother-loving son that he is) runs back to the Mothers in Darkness with the idea, gains their permission to do this strange thing ("You want to hit new food with old food? What for?"), practices and improves on it, and gains the name "Master of Weapons" for himself.
There is also a similar story about how ZZ, when in a rage because his enemy was out of his reach (something that is flying, someone on the other side of the Styx, etc.), created the idea of throwing rocks.
So, for Uz, Zorak Zoran is the creator of weapons. (Of course he also forgets this sometimes, and even his followers have been known to charge at an especially hated opponent with only fist and fang, forgetting about the mace at their side, in their rush to kill.)
And, while there are different stories about how he did it, he also created zombies and skeletons. One story is that during one fight all of Zorak Zoran's family and friends died, but they continued fighting simply because the raging ZZ continued howling at them to KILL! KILL! KILL!!!
(For Uz, skeletons and zombies are probably the human equivalent of clown figures. They are the dead, the end result of violence, who can commit further violence, and trolls are intrigued by this possibility. The very idea of their bodies being able to continue doing violence after they are dead is inspirational and sublime to some trolls!)
>...nor is he a fool, or a rogue, or an illusionist, or a shapeshifter:
>he's Scary Monster with added bells and whistles.
Well I could argue that since ZZ is described as male, and in Uz culture "the male is a sort of rogue," the ZZ _is_ a rogue, but I don't think that is
quite what you meant. And anyway, THAT'S MY POINT: in Uz culture the Trickster WOULD NOT BE a fool, an illusionist, or a shapeshifter!!! Those are what Trickster is in HUMAN cultures! In a non-human culture he will be something DIFFERENT!
And I feel this view of ZZ as Uz Trickster is _much_ more than just "Scary Monster with added bells and whistles." Scary Monster was based on Paul Reilly's two or three sentence description, in turn based on a conversation he had with Sandy Petersen about the Uz trickster. But there was no sense of "feel" for how Scary Monster fit into Uz culture, or why it was important. Now we have a cultural context for understanding the Uz trickster figure, and know a little bit more about how inhuman the Uz are.
Peace,
Peter
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #71
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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