Me>> Perhaps you could try reading the Dragon-slaying myths which
>> written down and find out that Orlanth simply did a variation
>> of being swallowed and cutting his way out when he fought Aroka?
>Maybe I did read it, maybe (strange idea, I know) I do put some
>thought into my arguments and don't just make up the facts as I need
>them, maybe you should credit people with more judgement than you do.
Excuse me, but all you did was say that the idea being swallowed and cutting themselves out (ie Sir Ethilrist, Argrath) was silly and then said that the Orlanthi would use the dragonslaying myths whilst apparently ignorant that the Orlanthi myths *do* have this sort of thing. If there was an indication of having understood what I wrote or any sign of some thought having gone into your remark, then it was not apparent to me. I can only credit people with judgement on the basis of what they have written.
>Anyway, back to the point. Orlanth "strode into its mouth ... and
>with a shout of victory tore the dragon asunder". Doesn't sound like
>someone being eaten. Maybe it is poetic licence, but I would prefer to
>think not.
As I said above, Orlanth used a _variation_ of being eaten ie he has placed himself in *danger* by being in the Dragon's mouth. I even pointed out another motif where the Hero is wrapped around by the serpent before killing it. These are _hazards_ that the Hero has to undergo before killing the monster.
>> Naturally as they are lefthanded and have a tail, unlike say
>> dwarves, elves, trolls, humans etc.
>Ducks have tails, ogres are left handed - which of these are not
>linked to the Man Rune?
Ogres are right-handed (Dragonewts are sinster) and are clearly related to the man rune. Or perhaps you have some hidden gnosis that transcends rationality?
David Cake:
Me>>I think that the Yelm the Youth stage is the same as joining
>>your local city cult (ie Raiba, Alkor, Yuthu).
> Quite a few people disagree, myself included, think that Yelm
>membership is restricted to a minority of city dwellers, basically only
>upper classes, and different to membership in the city cults. Everyone
>worships Yelm, but they do it as members of associated cults or as laity.
Yelm the Youth *is* a laity stage. Also note that being resident in a city and citizenship (which is a requirement for being a member of the city cult) are not the same thing as I have pointed out to David before. Making the local city god the patron of Yelm the Youth reinforces the concept of Yelm being a City God rather than the feudal noble that is commonly believed.
>You'll note that everyone agrees that most Pelorians worship Yelm in some
>way, its just that Peter thinks that 'worshipping Yelm' translates in rules
>terms to 'cult membership', whereas I think that being initiated into an
>associated cult counts as 'pantheon initiation', but membership in the Yelm
>cult directly is an upper class privelege.
The argument originally was Yelm is a noble's only cult. I disputed this by saying the Yelm was an Urban Cult and cited evidence. I get rather tired when people now want to rewrite history and say that they meant _all_along_ that Yelm is primarily an Upper Class God (with some poor unfortunates reduced to penury) with the intention of casting me as some lone extremist. The quote about 'worshipping Yelm' also mentions in the very same breath that the peasants worship Lodril. Are we supposed to concluded that they are not members of the Lodril cult according to your exegesis? And the argument about Pantheon initiation is but a weak reed: Is an Issaries initiate not considered Orlanthi by his fellow clan members? So why isn't a citizen considered an initiate of Yelm?
> Also, I don't think there is such a cult as Yuthu, though it was
>mentioned in some very old sources.
I wouldn't call the Genertela Book very old. Yuthu's not mentioned very well in the GRAY and the FS because those books are concerned with *Raibanth*. The lore of other cities is given short shrift.
>Yuthuppa means Gods Ship, and is where
>Anaxial the Sailor landed his boat according to GRoY, and the city god of
>Yuthuppa is probably Anaxial (and his wife). Though I guess they might
>sometimes refer to him as Yuthu (meaning the God or Our God or similar) if
>you really want to rationalise this very old name into current ideas.
Given that Yuthubars is also mentioned in the GRAY leads me to believe that Yuthu founded the City and that Anaxial was a famous Sailor-Emperor that ruled from it.
> Peters ideas on what dominates where are pretty good, but I don't
>think we are talking about the subcults actually taking the place of the
>Yelmic status, but simply being associated with it - and the association in
>many places is customary rather than rigid.
If the Orlanthi are happy enough to have Issaries replace Orlanth Goodvoice and Lhankor Mhy replace Orlanth Lawspeaker, then I don't see why the Yelmics can't consider that Yelm the Archer *is* Sagittus and Yelm the Youth *is* the local city god.
This is especially true if it is remembered that Yelm is a synthetic cult which is modified over the passing years. There is no divine relevation which automatically set out the stations of Yelm. People looked among their old cults to see which had the spark of Yelm within them and used those cults to make up the Yelm Cult as they thought it should be.
They didn't say:
'Yelm in the Good Old Days wielded a Bow. Therefore we must create a cult status relating to this myth. All Bow Gods that we can find must be subcults of Yelm the Archer'.
What they said was:
'The arrows of Sagittus's pierce the enemy like the Sun's Rays piece the Clouds. Furthermore on the Gods Wall, Sagittus has a Bright and Radiant Face. How can Sagittus *not* be a spark of Yelm left to us from the Old Days?'
And as for 'customary' rather than 'rigid', well if it was rigid then I wouldn't have the variation *between* cities. People can dissent from these choices and do, but we are talking about the majority.
>but I want to make it clear that you can have lots of archers that
>aren't in the Yelm cult.
Which I have not denied. Members of the Army that are not in the Yelm Cult are 'auxillaries'. If it worked for the Romans, it can work for Dara Happa.
>b) I think a Yelm the Warrior initiate may have some freedom to choose
>between which associated cult he is also associated with, rather than being
>constrained to whatever is the local choice. A member of Yelm the Warrior
>is expected to also be initiated into an associated warrior cult - but
>while Sagittus is the prefered god in Raibanth, Hastatus is a valid choice,
>particularly if you are serving in a Phalanx unit.
Which ignores the fact that what unit the warrior belongs to are *determined* by the local choices. Alkoth doesn't raise augners, for example.
> What form the Yelm cult takes in Glamour is an interesting one. I'm
>not sure I agree with Peter, but I'm not entirely sure I don't. I don't
>think we know enough about the relationship of Moonson to the Yelm cult to
>really say.
Moonson founded the City of Glamour *and* is the bearer of Antirius (he is called the Red Emperor because his glow was reddish compared to Yelmgatha) and shines like the Sun. What more proof do you need of his yelmic credentials?
>I thought of it as being less a cult of the nobility and more a cult
>of Lunar apparatchiks.
*sigh*. I thought we had moved away from nobility cults and merely to upper crust (which I'm sure lunar apparatchiks are). It look's like I'll have to renew my tenure as a lone extremist...
Michael O'Brien:
Me >>All that denier must count for something...
>[Wow, I had to actually look up "denier" and discovered that apart from it
>being an old French copper coin worth half a sou, a "denier" is a unit of
>nylon yarn weight. Of course my wife now tells me that this is how you buy
>pantyhose, and while she scoffs at my blokey ignorance, she also wonders
>just what it is I'm doing on the Internet at the moment...]
Oops. Hadn't realized that this was one of the Secrets that Man was Not Meant to Know. I apologize for loosing forbidden lore upon the unsuspecting masses. Of course, my sources must remain confidential...
End of Glorantha Digest V4 #131
WWW material at http://hops.wharton.upenn.edu/~loren/rolegame.html
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