Me>> The argument originally was Yelm is a noble's only cult. I disputed
>> this by saying the Yelm was an Urban Cult and cited evidence.
>Peter argued in V4 #131 that the existence of emperors who were
>originally from non-Dara Happan nobility invalidates the claim that
>Yelm is a nobles-only cult.
I was referring to a previous incarnation of this debate when the digest was in Loren's hands. That is what I meant by 'originally'.
>From this argument, it does not follow that there are
>commoners initiated into the cult of Yelm.
One of the chief arguments that I made in the original argument was the status of Imperator required that the person be a noble which seemed redundant if Yelm was a nobles-only cult. To be a member of Yelm the Youth, one merely only had to have one's father a member of Yelm the Youth. To be a member of Yelm the Sage, one needed to only to be a Priest of an associated cult ie Lodril(!). Even then it is said in the WW writeup that the new Member of Yelm the Sage does not become Noble.
Because of this, it is my belief that the Yelm Cult has *two* tiers, one a select group consisting of the nobility (ie those who filful the requirements for becoming an imperator) and the other being the kind of people who make up most of the urban society ie citizens, merchants, soldiers, sages, lawyers, healers and landlords.
Not every 'commoner' *qualifies* to be a member of Yelm the Youth because one still has to have a father who is a member. That is why the benchmark of extending the Yelmic cult membership to citizens is a safe one IMO.
>Rather, I see Yelm
>initiation as a sufficient condition for noble status: Getting into
>Yelm makes you a noble. That just isn't going to happen for Joe
>Lodrilite. Carpetbaggers and other Carmanians who weasel their way
>into high society are the exceptions that prove the existence of this
>rule.
If you want to say that Dara Happan Society is as rigidly stratified as the Rokari (which denies the existance of progression through Castes while tacitly permitting it - strange that I don't hear outrage about this) then I have no problem. But to say that Joe Lodrili has no chance of becoming a Yelmic is plain wrong. The most honest way is for him to become a Priest of some god or another before taking the Yelm the Sage route.
And there are plenty of massed examples of people worming their way into High Society. The Advisors of Radaidavu, the Toga-men of Erzanestyu, the New Witnesses of Dismesiod and the Old Families of Karmexdros are the most obvious examples.
>As for direct evidence of a nobles-only Yelm cult, I can only appeal
>to MGF.
Point of Order: 'a nobles-only Yelm cult' is not the same thing as 'Yelm is a noble's only cult'. There is a nobles-only cult of Yelm - Imperator - but it is not the *only* cult of Yelm IMO.
>The half-, quarter, and eighth-citizens of the old days,
The half-people are those who do not owe property and are on the lowest rung of society in Khordavu's day. I'm only suggesting that the equivalent of members of the seventeen families (ie the equivalent of Greek hoplite families or Roman citizens) are eligible for membership in the Yelm Cult.
>the
>plethora of functionally diverse deities in the pantheon, and the big
>interest in ancestry, and the survival of Dara Happan culture in the
>face of frequent conquest also indicate a rather stratified society in
>which this kind of club makes sense.
I find that the frequent conquests of Dara Happa indicates that the rigidly stratified society is an illusion. It is far more likely IMO that those who take control after expelling the latest wave of invaders have _legitimized_ their rule by claiming links with Old Dara Happa rather than them being remants of the old rulers that miracolously survived in secret. If the new leaders have succeeded, the Dara Happan tradition implies that they are noble irregardless of whether they have straw between their teeth. Whoever heard of Commoners taking power in Dara Happa? Hence the 'big interest' in Ancestry.
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